Episode Transcript
[00:00:15] Speaker A: Welcome to the clear admit MBA admissions podcast. I'm Graham Richmond, and for this special episode of the show, we are going to hear from a panel of admissions directors offering key admissions tips on some of the areas of the application process. The audio you're going to hear actually comes from a panel that we organized in Chicago at our MBA fair. Some of our regular listeners know that we were planning that for many months, and so what we thought we would do is we recorded it and bring it this way. We can kind of bring it to you if you weren't able to join us in Chicago. So this particular session in terms of what you're going to hear, is all about tests and grades, work experience and outside activities. So three really critical components of the application process. And essentially, we focus on these areas. We try to figure out what's the role of standardized testing and your past academic performance. How much work experience do you need to go to business school? What aspects of that experience are important, and why do admissions teams look at things like hobbies or volunteer work and your collegiate involvement outside of the classroom? What's really great is that, as with all the sessions we did in Chicago, this is a great panel. We've got Shelly Heinrich, who's the associate dean and managing director for MBA admissions at Georgetown McDonough. We've got Allison Jamison, who's the assistant dean of admissions at Duke's Fuqua School of Business. We have Melissa Rapp, who's an associate dean of graduate admissions at Emory Goyesueta Business School. And we have Amber Walsh, who's the senior associate director of MBA admissions at Yale Som. I moderated the session. You will hear my voice as well. But, yeah, without further ado, let's give it a listen.
[00:01:54] Speaker B: All right, welcome back, everybody. For those of you who've been to the earlier sessions, if you're just coming downstairs for the first time, thanks for joining us. I was just telling our panelists, I'm really excited about this session because we're getting into kind of the down to brass tacks, as they say. We're going to really talk about applying to business school and some of the sort of strategies and information that are going to be really helpful to you as you start working on applications down the road. I do want to do the same thing I did earlier today. Raise your hand if you're thinking of applying to business school to start in the fall of 2025. Okay, so most of you. So that's great.
Let's see. So the name of this session is admissions tips and it's about what I would call the raw materials that you bring into the process. So, your grades from undergrad, if you've taken a test, the work experience, you've had, all those things. So we're going to get into it. I'm going to start with a quick introduction for our panelists. So, first we have Shelley Heinrich, who is over at Georgetown. McDonough. I always forget your exact title, but you are the sort of boss of all things admissions, I want to say associate dean. Is that right? Yeah. Sorry. I don't remember off the top of my head. And then also, we have Allison Jamieson, who is in a similar role over at Duke's Fuqua School of Business. And I've just taught you all how to say Fuqua. I'm not going to pronounce it the way I've heard some people say it, because this is a PG 13 panel, but Fuqua. And the way that I remember it is fu qualify. So, Fuqua. Do you guys say that internally? Yeah. Okay. And then we have Melissa Rapp, who works at Emory. Goysueta. Did I do that right? Yeah. And she's also, like, the sort of chief admissions person at Emory.
And finally, we have Amber Walsh, who works for Yale School of Management, again, in MBA admissions. And is. What's your exact title? I always forget, too.
[00:03:50] Speaker C: Senior associate director.
[00:03:52] Speaker B: Senior associate director. So, these folks are reading your applications. They're important. They're gonna have a lot of great advice for us, and we're gonna start with you, Shelley. First question.
What do the GMAT and the GRE test and how you know, because almost all of you require or it is part of the process. Some of you have waivers, but you'll accept these scores. And I'm just wondering, like, what do you think that they're testing, and how do you use the results from a candidate as you evaluate their application?
[00:04:24] Speaker D: Absolutely. So, it's the favorite acronym of the MBA. GMAT. Gre. Everyone's favorite acronym.
So, you know, at the root out of it, we are trying to assess your academic ability and specifically your quantitative preparedness.
There's many ways that we can do that, one of which are the standardized tests.
So there's the gMat and gre are the most common. Some schools also take the executive assessment, which is a part of GMAT, but with GMAT and GrE.
Let's start with the GMAT. So, everyone probably knows that they have a new focus edition that's out. So it's a new test format. Um. Uh, that's slightly shorter than the previous one. Um, has different kind of pros and cons of the previous one. But it is the test now. It is the only test you can take with GMAT. So there's, um, three sections. Quantitative, verbal data, insights. There's no writing section anymore on the GMAT, um, if that's good or bad for you all. But essentially, it's a. You know, it's a standardized test. There's many different ways that you can prepare for it. Um, you can hire a test prep company, you can crack open a book from Barnes and Noble, or you can, you know, study on your own.
So those three sections, all of us look at them differently. I would say we probably all hone in on the data and quant sections, maybe a little bit more, because we want to make sure that you're set up for success, for finance and accounting and stats, all of these highly rigorous classes in our curriculum. So GRe equally has kind of a quantitative, a verbal and a writing section on Grenada. And the same way we're looking at these scores, you know, we're looking at these scores to test the same thing that we would with GMAT. So how do we look at these? What do we look for? What do we recommend? So, hopefully, you take them at least once, but we recommend that you probably take them twice. Why? Because you're statistically likely to do better the second time on the test. So, as you're planning out your timeline, especially because many of you are applying next, which, kudos to you all, you're giving yourself enough time to prepare. You should, in your timeline, prepare to take the test at least a second time.
Probably don't take it more than three times. You're statistically likely not going to do that much better in a short amount of time if you're taking it more than three. But standardized tests can really help to either boost your GPA if you had a really strong GPA, or perhaps you're a different person in undergrad, and maybe your GPA you don't feel reflects your abilities now. And so a standardized test can really offset an undergraduate GPA that's lower than our class average. But they worked hand them. They work hand in hand. So that's kind of a little bit about what we look for. And.
[00:07:15] Speaker B: Yeah, okay. Super helpful. Allison, I want to turn to you and talk about other tests. So, Shelly mentioned the executive assessment. I know there are some programs, I don't know if Fuqua does this, but there are other programs that will, like, accept, you know, other standardized tests, like even I can't remember which school it is. We'll accept maybe the MCAT or the LSAT or even your SAT scores. So talk a little bit about that and also talk about schools that will allow you to waive a test and not have to take a test. And when. Is that appropriate?
[00:07:44] Speaker E: Yeah, I think every school is a little bit different in the requirements, so that's really critical as you're in this phase, is to find out what each school that you're interested in does require. A. There might be schools that will take the LSAT or the MCAT, particularly if you're looking at a dual degree program or something like that.
They might be able to take your SAT or Act, although I think that's probably less common. But the executive assessment is one that we mentioned, as well. And one question that I've gotten a lot tonight that I'll just reiterate, if we tell you that we take a test and we take more than one kind, we genuinely don't care which one you give us. So it's not a trap. It's not a trick question. If a school says, we take the GMAT, the GRE, and the executive assessment, you pick the one that works best for you. We just went through with some of the differences in some of the tests, and some of them might play to your strengths more than others. So you can take some different self assessments, see what you think, oh, hey, I'm a better writer, or I'm not as good of a writer. This one might fit better for me. But check in with each school similarly for any sort of waiver. You know, as you said, we're looking for quantitative readiness. We want to make sure that when you get into an MBA classroom and it's moving quickly, that you are set up for success. So if you're looking for a test waiver, think about, do I have enough quantitative preparedness in other areas? Am I working in a quantitative field? Do I have a CPA or CFA, for example? That, again, is going to vary from school to school. So just make sure you know the policy of each school to which you're applying.
[00:09:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Can I just get a quick show of hands? Do any of you accept a waiver for the standardized tests?
So you, too, but not. Okay. So just. Yeah, so it really does vary from school to school, and it's important to kind of read that fine print.
I know we talked about tests first. Cause that's kind of. People always kind of moan and complain about having to take tests, but I want to talk about something that's equally important when it comes to academic aptitude, and that is grades and undergraduate performance and your transcripts, your major. So just tell me a little bit about how do you use that.
[00:09:43] Speaker F: Sure. So kind of good news, bad news. Your undergraduate GPA is not changing. You have no way of impacting that at this point. So it is kind of what it is. And as Shelley mentioned, some of you may have been very different people, or you may have encountered some kind of challenge during your undergrad that is reflected in your grades. And really, when we're reviewing a transcript, we are looking for what classes did you take? What kind of progression do you show in your coursework? And then kind of what were you doing year to year? Were you getting better as a student? Was there a year where maybe you didn't perform as well? And I think the important thing to do is know what your story is around your grades. If you did, fantastic, great. That's going to be definitely a plus in your application that you won't have to worry about explaining. But if there is a semester where you just didn't do well or you weren't as focused as maybe you should have been, that's what schools often have, an optional essay for you to address. If there is something in your application, whether it's your GPA or some other circumstances, that there isn't a neat way to get into the application in other places, that optional essay is a way for you to address that. And we do appreciate stories where, you know, someone understands that their grade point average maybe isn't where our average is, but they can tell a story of tenacity, or they've had, they've shown grit and overdose overcoming some challenges that they had in undergraduate. So I don't think there's a school up here that has a hard and fast, you know, below this, you're just totally out of consideration. But you have to be able to, number one, demonstrate that you are a different person, and that can be done through a test score or through your work experience. And number two, really own the story of why you have the GPA that you do.
[00:11:49] Speaker B: That's really helpful. While we're talking about that, Amber, are there cutoffs? Like Melissa just said, there aren't cutoffs, but I guess, yeah, just clarify that. And also, what about the caliber of one's undergraduate institution? Like, is a 30 from unknown school different than a 30 from a really noted rigorous program? And maybe talk about majors. Like, if someone has, like, a very quantitatively rigorous major, does that matter? So, yeah, these types of components here.
[00:12:23] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. So, I don't think any of us have a cutoff for GPA. And I think, as you explained, that there could be different circumstances that led to your GPA. And I think, as Shelley mentioned, too, like, if you have a lower GPA, maybe you try to balance that with a stronger or vesting the time to get a stronger standardized test score. So that's a nice way to balance that. Also explain if there are circumstances. Maybe you were working full time, maybe you were competing in sports. Maybe there was something else going on in your life that you can explain in an essay.
The next question was about the caliber of the undergraduate, the caliber of the. So I would say, is that factored in? I would say to some extent, yes. But we're looking for people in an academic profile. We're looking for people that are gonna succeed in our rigorous programs. So if you are really successful at a community college or a state school, the strength of that academic GPA weighs a lot more than the ranking of your school. So I think that. That we're looking for people that are going to be successful in the program. So, you know, that you. You may have not had choices in terms of, like, the school that you were able to go to for undergrad. And some people, again, you know, transitioning from community colleges to, you know, a four year degree and transferring, like, all of that is great, and it shows a lot of grit and rigor, and that's what we're looking for when people show up in these MBA programs.
[00:14:06] Speaker B: Yeah, and I think, to add to that, I would say that people often talk about how the standardized test is like a snapshot. It's a current snapshot, usually because you're taking the test around the time you're applying, whereas the GPA is often, like, it's four years of work that got you to that GPA. And so they're kind of. There's that interaction there where those two data points are quite helpful, I would think, to the admissions team. I did want to go back to something that. Yeah, go ahead.
[00:14:32] Speaker C: I did want to add something, too. And people, I think one of the beautiful things about an MBA is that you can do it in different points in your life. So, you know, the further that you are from that undergraduate experience, I think that that weighs into the factor, into the calculation a little bit differently. Like, you can have this stellar ten years of work experience, and so that can also balance a little bit of that academic performance when you were an undergrad and still figuring things out so.
[00:15:03] Speaker B: This is perfect, because I think one of the things I'm really curious about is that interaction between these sort of siloed parts of the application or the applicant's profile. So, on the one hand, you could say, oh, the academics are being assessed by the test and the GPA, and that you could have amazing work experience, but that doesn't necessarily assure the committee of your academic aptitude. But it sounds like if you do have great work experience, it may still help a little bit. Is that fair to say? Sure. Okay.
I guess the next question I had, I want to shift gears away from the academics and get into this other core component, which is work experience. So, Shelley, I wondered if you could just talk about, like, why do you require work experience? And how do you. Yeah, how do you assess the work experience when you're reading someone's application?
[00:15:48] Speaker D: Yeah, absolutely. So why do we require it? Kind of two reasons. One is that the classroom dynamic in an MBA is much different than undergrad. A lot of the classroom dynamic is conversations amongst your cohort, your class, your peers, a lot of cold calling, socratic method, a lot of professors wanting you to share how this topic was relevant to your industry that you worked in. So we're talking about finance. Well, did someone work in, you know, this sector, and how did finance work in this sector or this sector? So, so much of your learning is from your peers, and in order to do that, your peers have to have work experience. So that's one. The other reason is that employers who are coming to hire you from the top schools that are, you know, in this. In this room tonight or in this event tonight, they're coming to hire you, expecting that you have a certain level of work experience, because they have an MBA kind of ecosystem of jobs, and they are requiring kind of that average of five years, but more kind of like the three to six year range. And so if you fall below, let's say, two years or you fall above, let's say, 1112 years and 1112 years, you kind of fall outside of that traditional MBA recruitment path. It doesn't mean it's not possible. It doesn't mean you can't go to a program. It just means our conversation is different with you if you kind of fall outside of that average years of work experience. So that's kind of the first part of the question. Second, I think, is, how do we assess it? So, two parts to that as well. We assess your years of work experience. So we all have averages. I would say the industry average is about five years post undergrad. But check all our profiles out.
Many schools have a two year minimum, two years at the time that you start the program, not at the time you apply. At the time you start again. All schools are different, so check the websites and then your quality of work experience. What have you done during that time? And we really want to know, like what were your accomplishments? Not necessarily your responsibilities, but what were your accomplishments?
Did you have progression? Like were you promoted? If you werent, thats fine. Some industries, like engineering or tech, you dont get promoted very quickly. So it's not a disqualifier, but if you were, highlight it. And then how does that work experience relate or translate to what you want to do in your short term and long term goals? We expect that you will probably switch function or industry, but we also want to understand the story of that. So I'll stop there.
[00:18:17] Speaker B: Okay. And I guess continuing with that, Allison, you often hear that, like, the firm that you come from might matter. So like if someone's working at a known versus an unknown firm, how do you handle that and how do you, you might have a really good idea of what it means if someone's coming from a firm that's traditionally sent lots of people to business school, versus a company that you haven't heard of, like how do you get up to speed on that? And I guess similarly, another kind of rumor that we hear a lot about is like, oh, I need to have managed people to go to business school. And a lot of the application forms will even say, like, how many people report to you? Or do you have any experience managing others? So weigh in on those two factors.
[00:18:58] Speaker E: Yeah, and I think this goes back to something that you asked Graham, saying, it sort of looks like it's in silos. From the reader's perspective, none of your application is in a silo. It is all together telling a story. And so when we say we have averages, you're going to have people way above that and way below that, because it is truly an average. The spectrum is what is interesting to us as readers. And that means also when we're looking at your work experience experience, if everybody is coming from the same big four accounting firm, like, that's super boring. I'd like to see some of that. But I also like to see somebody who's got their own business, has a family business, who's been a teacher, who's been in the military, who's been in the clergy. I mean, we see all of these things. So I think, one, we get a lot of applications and we've all been doing this a long time, so you do have a sense for kind of, okay, this is sort of what this person. Person is coming from. Oh, that's something I haven't seen before. But we're going to look at your resume. We're going to look at your recommendation. We're going to look at what you put into your essays. We're going to look at what you talked about in your interview to get an overall picture for what that work experience has been. And if it's a company I haven't heard of, I can't tell you how many times I've been reading an application and I got on Google and I went down a rabbit hole and I was like, wow, that's amazing. So we do spend time with these, and so if it's not a big name company, it doesn't matter. It really is about how you tell your story, and that's going to be true for all parts of your application. So don't feel like you've got to have these sort of big names, because what we are looking for is what you've achieved. And so how you're telling that story is the part that is important.
I think there was a second.
[00:20:36] Speaker B: Yeah, it's the idea of, have you managed other things?
[00:20:39] Speaker E: Have you managed? Yes. So we do ask that, because as we are coming through the MBA program, we're looking to create future business leaders. But the key word there is future. So you may have had the chance to lead right now, but maybe you haven't, but you have the potential. So if you haven't actively managed people, now we're going to look and see, does this person have the potential to lead? So how do I see that? Have you gotten promotions? Have you been given projects? Have you taken responsibilities outside of your core responsibilities in an employee resource group or something? Are you involved in a nonprofit, that you have a leadership role? Have you been active in your community? There are lots of ways that we can ascertain if you have potential to manage, if you haven't had the chance yet.
[00:21:19] Speaker B: Okay, excellent. Now we're going to now turn to the final sort of piece, which is about outside activities or hobbies, volunteer work, even collegiate extracurriculars. And so, Melissa, I wanted to just find out a little bit. I mean, the data forms or the application forms that people fill out when they apply to business school often have lots of questions about this, like, what were your outside activities in college, and what do you do now when you're not at work? And it ranges from hobbies, to formal volunteer work, to sports or whatever it might be. So I'm just wondering, why do you ask for that stuff and how do you evaluate it?
[00:21:53] Speaker F: I think it is important to note that we're not asking you anything just for the fun of it. We do use all the data that you provide to us, and we throw around this word holistic so much. But I think at the heart of it, we really all believe that this is not a transactional experience. This is not. You're going to come to class and go home and then come to class the next day. We're really building a community.
And another word for community is network. So we are looking for people for you, and it's reciprocal that this is a community that is rich and vibrant, and we want you to get involved in the clubs that we have, the professional clubs, the social clubs. We want you to take leadership roles, and the best predictor of future behavior is past performance. And so if you were involved in undergrad, if you're involved in your community, it's a really good indicator that you're going to be a good community member at our schools as well, that you're going to take on the challenge of leading a club, or maybe you start a new club, that you're going to really show up. And that's what we mean when we talk about the fit of the school or the community that you're joining. This is not your undergrad, where you just showed up to class. This is much bigger, much broader, and much deeper. So that's why we ask.
[00:23:23] Speaker B: Okay, perfect. So a couple of, like, myths to maybe bust here when it comes to these outside activities. The first is that volunteer work is like, up here and other hobbies are down here. Like, if someone just likes running marathons, that doesn't count in the same way as someone who's spooning out soup in a soup kitchen. And the other one is what I would do about collegiate extracurriculars. Like, maybe I was super active when I was at university, but since I've been working, I'm just, I don't have a lot of time because I have a really demanding 70 hours kind of crazy job. Or, like, how do I navigate that aspect?
[00:24:00] Speaker C: Yeah. So I think building off of what Melissa was saying is that your hobbies or your activities can tell us a little bit more about your values. Like, what outside the workplace is important to you? Where have you invested your time? Where have you shown up as a leader or a community member? So I think given that either hobbies or volunteer activities, I would say one is not necessarily better than the other. I would say that the quality over the quantity is also something that I would note we're looking for. It's not. I think a lot of times the stereotype for undergrad admissions is that they've been president of 15 clubs and have participated in literally every activity. And although that shows some great time management, so I'm not gonna discredit that, but when you've invested your time deeply into an organization or an activity that shows, like, a level of commitment that you've engaged in, and I think, and the level of value that you're giving to that exercise, I will say the caveat, too. You talked about a difference between collegiate activities versus afterwards. I mean, not everyone has the time and space to participate in a lot of activities, and certainly that could be, you could be working in a full time job while you're going to school or those types of things. So I just want to make sure that it's broad enough that that's not the expectation that everybody has to have given 20 hours a week to volunteering at a student soup kitchen. But telling us about that, absolutely. To include leadership or activities that you participated while you were in undergrad. In our application, we asked for two activities from undergrad and two activities from post graduation, so that, you know, really making you focus on, what are those top two?
[00:25:53] Speaker B: Okay, so one of the things I used to work in admissions at Wharton in Philadelphia, and one of the things we would talk about in the office, and I just kind of wondered if this resonates with you, Washington, that we wanted students to show up who could kind of thrive academically in the curriculum. So that's kind of that academic piece. That's why we were looking at the tests and the, and the GPA and all that stuff. But then we also wanted candidates who would graduate with a job, so people who had like, maybe interesting experience before business school and a good kind of plan for post MBA. And then the final piece, which relates to activities was we needed people to, like, staff all the stuff happening on campus. So it's like, oh, okay, this person really loves photography. Maybe they'll take pictures for the blog or the website that we kind of chronicle the Wharton experience or whatever. So, does that resonate with you guys? When you're looking at a file, you're trying to make sure that people could kind of tick those three main boxes.
[00:26:44] Speaker F: I mean, maybe this is too general, but I just don't want boring people.
I want people who are interesting and interesting shows up in a lot of different ways.
We understand a lot of you have early, demanding careers, and you're spending a lot of time in the office, but maybe you've read every biography of the president who served in the United States. Like, that's interesting. I had an interview once with a gentleman who, on his days off, he would help count birds. He got up really early in the morning during migration season, and they count birds that are on site sidewalks because they've flown into buildings. And it's part of this much larger global research around the impact of skyscrapers and lights on wildlife. And I was like, that's really interesting. It has nothing to do with business, but you're thinking about other things. You're thinking about the world or you're learning about history. Whatever makes you interesting. And I am confident that everybody in this room is interesting.
We want to know that. We want to get to know you on that level, not just your grades or your work experience.
[00:27:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Well said. So we're going to wrap up in a moment, but I want to put each of you on the spot, if you don't mind. And I would love, since we have a couple extra minutes, like. Shelley, can you just tell us one thing about the Georgetown McDonough application that you want someone to know about? Like, some just. I don't know. It could be a piece of advice or just something that you want people to be aware of with your application.
[00:28:19] Speaker D: Absolutely. So I think something that I love is the video essay. So it's one to two minutes. Record it on YouTube or Vimeo. Tell us some interesting, random facts about yourself, but don't be scared. You can re record the video as many times as you want until you get it right and submit it. But it's a way for us to just get to know you outside of what's on paper. So I love that part of it.
[00:28:42] Speaker B: Okay. Excellent. Allison, I think I know where you're going to go.
[00:28:44] Speaker D: You do?
[00:28:45] Speaker E: It's my favorite. It's our 25 random things essay, which is where you find out where people are counting dead birds and things. But we ask you to tell us 25 things about yourself. And it's not 25 things from your resume. It's 25 things from your life. And that really helps us get to know who you are. What's it like? It's like we've just sat down and had a cup of coffee with you. It's really great way to get to know people.
[00:29:05] Speaker B: And that's like a list. Like, it's not like it is a numbered list. A numbered list, yeah. Okay.
[00:29:10] Speaker F: Melissa Shelley kind of stole my video essay. I think every school that has a video essay loves it because it does give you a chance to see people and have them expressing themselves in a different way. So I'm going to go with. There's two things. The very last line of a resume where you are listing your hobbies and interests. Love reading those because they do tell us a little bit more about you. And then the optional essay, because, again, I think it adds another dimension of richness and understanding of who you are.
[00:29:39] Speaker B: I love that you mentioned the resume, that last line. Because I have been. We've had internal debates at clear admit, and even with friends, I always had that line on my resume. And I would put things that I was really into, like, you know, collecting lp's and, you know, certain types of music or. And people would be like, why is that on your resume? That's the dumbest thing ever. That has nothing to do with your. But it helps people to kind of get to know you a bit. So good to hear that, Amber. One thing about the Yale school management application process you want us to know.
[00:30:04] Speaker C: Well, we also have video questions as well, but I would say our essay. So we have. Have a choice of three essays, and ours is a choice of what is the biggest commitment you've ever made?
What's a community that's important to you, and how have you given back to that community? Or the biggest challenge that you've ever faced? And I think that talking about past behavior, predicting future behavior, it's both getting at, like, how have you approached something that was important to you and challenging, and then also just getting to those values, like, what is it that you've invested your time in? What is the community that's important to you? And I think that that gives us, again, like, another aspect of who you are as a whole person, not just the numbers and statistics that we see on the profiles.
[00:30:53] Speaker B: Yeah. And so I'm just going to wrap up by saying that this is what I love about the MBA admissions process. You don't really see this in medical school, law school, or many other academic degrees that you can pursue. It really is holistic. Like, they care about your outside interests, they care about your academic preparedness and obviously your career plan. And it just makes it. I'm sure your jobs are way more interesting because you don't have, like, oh, here's the LSAT score. I put that into the computer with their GPA, and then I know if they're even qualified to be reading the file. None of that happens. Every file is read in business school. There's no cutoffs, as we just said earlier. So I really appreciate you guys making time to do this. I know that you have lots of people wanting to talk to you upstairs and that you had to leave that to come down. I actually had to drag you away from some candidates. So we're not going to do Q and a purposely, so that they can get back upstairs, but go find them and talk to them at their table. So, Shelly, Allison, Melissa and Amber, thank you so much for your time doing this. Really appreciate it.
