Episode Transcript
[00:00:15] Speaker A: Welcome to the Clearadmit MBA Admissions Podcast. I'm your host, Graham Richmond, and this special episode is going to dive into the new version of the GMAT exam. The GMAT folk us. Edition.
[00:00:26] Speaker B: For more than 100 years, Emory University's Guiseueta Business School has been a training ground for principal leaders and a laboratory for powerful insights. Whether you're looking to accelerate your career or make a career pivot, Emory's one year and two year full time MBA programs prepare you for a lifetime of career confidence. Learn more about Emory's top 20 MBA, with top five career outcomes, offering world class academics and small by design classes delivered in a dynamic global city. More at emory biz clearadmit.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: I'm incredibly excited since I've been wanting to do a show about the new exam for quite some time. I know our regular listeners have heard me talking about this, and with sign ups for the test now open and the first test dates coming next month, I think it's November 7 this feels like a great time to be talking about the test. My goals for this episode are to shed some light on the background of this new version of the test, how it was designed, and I also want to explore the nature of the test and help those of you tuning in to better understand what to expect. And, of course, we'll have to unpack scoring and any recommended test prep options that might be out there. I know that's a lot to tackle, and most of you are probably wondering how on earth I would be able to cover so much ground. Well, I've actually managed to convince Manish Daria, the director of product development at Graduate Management Admissions Council, to help me today. So Manish works at GMAC. I can honestly not think of a better person to bring onto the show for this, and you'll learn why as we get into our discussion. Let me give a really brief bio on Manish before we get started here. So, Manish has been at GMAC since 2015. He served in a number of product management roles while making his way to the director role. And since he currently is in charge of all product development, he knows probably quite a bit about what's going on with this new test. Manish has a BA. In marketing and finance from the University of Virginia and an MBA from the McDonough School of business at Georgetown University. Welcome, Manish.
[00:02:30] Speaker C: Thank you, Graham. Yeah, I'm really excited to chat with you today about the next evolution of the GMAT exam, the GMAT Focus edition, and make sure that the listeners are armed with the information they need to be successful.
[00:02:44] Speaker A: Awesome. Yeah, and I really appreciate you making time to do this. I know that we talked about it a couple of months ago, and I remember at the time you were like, well, let's wait a little till we can actually talk more about all the kind of nuances of the best. So here we are. I guess the first question I had for you is I just wanted you to tell our listeners kind of briefly about what GMAC is and how long the GMAT exam has been a part of the GME or graduate management education landscape.
[00:03:10] Speaker C: Sure, happy to. So GMAC is a mission driven nonprofit association, and we're comprised of leading graduate business schools from around the world. And our mission is to provide tools and information that help schools and candidates to discover and evaluate each other. So we do things like provide world class research conferences, recruiting tools and assessments for the graduate management education industry. And for candidates, we provide resources, events, and other services that help guide candidates through their higher education journey.
Of course, we own and administer the GMAT Exam, which is the most widely used graduate business school assessment. And it launched back in 1954, and since then it's been the gold standard for assessing candidate readiness for graduate business degree programs.
[00:04:02] Speaker A: Yeah, I knew it was a long time ago, but that is yeah, it's really wow. Since the mind, what prompted the introduction of this GMAP Focus Edition? Where did the idea come from? And just talk us through that.
[00:04:17] Speaker C: I get that question a lot, and it was really in response to the evolving needs of the market. So the expectations of candidates, the expectations of schools, and even the expectations of employers, they've changed quite a bit. And the GMAT has met that change really head on. And this is nothing new, as I alluded to. We've been the gold standard for assessing candidate readiness for 70 years, and that's because the GMAT has always kept pace and evolved with changing market needs. So the first GMAT, as I said, launched in 1954, and that original version looks very different from today's GMAT, which in turn looks quite different from the GMAT Focus Edition, which continues the evolution. So we're really trying with the GMAT Focus Edition to continue our leadership role in business school admissions.
[00:05:09] Speaker A: Yeah, now that you talk about that, I'm now remembering I'm going to date myself here, but when I took the GMAT exam many years ago, it was on paper. And I remember being pretty excited when you all introduced the kind of computer adaptive version where you would go and take it at a center and take it on a computer. And then I'm thinking about the introduction of the IR section. So you're right. I guess this has been sort of an evolution as opposed to just from nowhere kind of new test. That's the first time since the something. But I guess I'd love to know who had input on the design. You mentioned employers, I presume schools as well. Do you want to take us through any of the details around that? How does one go about kind of making a new version of the test?
[00:05:50] Speaker C: Yeah, so certainly as a member driven organization, we speak with the business school community regularly, and that's part of what we do on an everyday basis. And so we have listening sessions with them. We regularly do focus groups. We obviously visit with them and make sure that they're supported and we meet with them at conferences. We have a variety of industry conferences. And so we've been talking to them about our assessment portfolio for a number of years. And we started to really pinpoint that there was an evolving need in the market.
And so we really went a step further and we kicked off a really robust research program. We even brought in a third party firm to make sure that we had no bias in this process. We really wanted to be objective in understanding the needs of schools and candidates so that we could evolve the GMED exam in the best way possible. So on the school side, as you alluded to, we had over 65 conversations with school professionals around the world. And this was a wide mix of program types and sizes. So global schools, regional schools, public schools, private schools, schools focused on MBA, schools focused on business masters. And we really wanted to make sure that while we couldn't get to every business school in the world, we wanted to make sure that nearly every business school was represented. And then on the candidate side, we really did go out and do surveys and focus groups. We got in front of nearly 5400 candidates, again representing a very diverse mix of demographic characteristics around the world. And then as we got going, we also actually put together a global school advisory group. And they really went deep with us and they helped us make some of the decisions, one of which you alluded to earlier, which is scoring, which we'll get to later. But they were very involved in making sure that we were evolving that part of the exam properly and to their expectations.
[00:08:01] Speaker A: Got it. So I think one of the things I'm thinking about as well is I don't know if you're going to pull back the veil on this or not, but I wonder if when you talked to candidates, they were sort of the driving force behind making the exam a little bit shorter or not. Because I know that the test is a bit shorter now. And was that coming from them or was that the schools or the employers?
[00:08:21] Speaker C: No, it's both, really. The schools certainly saw an opportunity to make it shorter, to make it more available and accessible to a wider population. Schools are looking for new and different types of candidates, and they felt that by making it shorter, it would be more approachable candidates. You're right, of course. They're very busy and they're looking for a lighter experience. And so that was one of the key parts of the research we did hear, hey, GMAC, how can you make this thing shorter, more efficient? But we also heard a couple other things. We heard, can you make it more flexible?
Which is one of the big pillars that we took to heart. And lastly, can you provide more information or more insight? And that came from schools and candidates as well. And so we took those sort of pillars around, making it shorter, more efficient, making it more flexible, and providing more insight to heart. And those three pillars appear in all aspects of the test experience, the exam experience, end to end. And so I can give you a few examples if that's okay.
[00:09:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I would love to. I mean, I think the next question that I'd had for you was just about kind of how is this test different from the old? So that kind of is a perfect segue, and maybe also how is it similar? But I'd love to know to whatever extent you can talk about the exact length, how many sections there are, and then some of these features that you're kind of alluding to.
[00:09:49] Speaker C: Yeah, so I'll start at the high level, and then I'll go a little deeper again with the goal of being efficient, flexible and insightful.
Let me give you an example of each of those. And then I'll go a little deeper. So the exam is certainly shorter. We've already talked about that. It's got curated content. It focuses on the most relevant skill sets for business school and business careers. We really also wanted to provide flexibility and more control for the test taker, give them the ability to take the exam in whatever order they choose. Quant first, verbal first. The third section, which is Data Insights, which we'll get to, they could take that first, and they can throw in a ten minute break in between any two sections. And then we also, in response to what the market has been asking for, added the ability to review and change responses. And we can talk a little bit more about that, but that really reduces some of the pressure and changes the test taking strategies that people have with the exam. And then finally with Data Insights, which is the updated section, we're providing test takers and schools much better insight and information about this highly relevant skill set around data analytics.
So that's at the high level. Let me go a little deeper. So the GMAT Focus Edition now only has three sections, and each one is 45 minutes long.
This is different from the current version, which has four sections.
And the GMAT Focus Edition has a Verbal Reasoning section, a quantitative reasoning section, and a newly designed Data Insights section.
And when we talked to schools and corporate recruiters and those sorts of stakeholders, we heard that skill sets around critical thinking, data literacy, and problem solving, which all call for complex judgments, were really paramount in their minds as to what candidates needed to show and demonstrate to be successful.
And so we really took that to heart. In the redesign, which is why we've made some changes.
And anyone who looks at the exam now, they'll say, hey, some of the questions look different, but we've really recalibrated the exam. We've moved some things around so that we can really provide insight into those three areas.
And so there's no new question types.
But we did remove some things. We did curate the exam, as I said, to be highly relevant and highly focused. So we heard from schools, sentence correction really is not supporting this idea of problem solving, critical thinking, or data literacy. So we got rid of that. Awa, the writing assessment also fell into that boat, so we got rid of that.
So now you have an exam. The quant section now has 21 questions. The verbal section has 23 questions, and the data insight section has 20 questions. And together, the exam is 2 hours and 15 minutes long, down from 3 hours and seven minutes. And it's really focused, and it's going to really feel like a more efficient, flexible, and insightful version of the GMAT. Behind the scenes, there are a host of new benefits and insights that we'll be providing schools. But to the test taker, they can feel comfortable that there's no new questions. And if they've already taken the GMAT before, they're going to be just fine. It's just going to feel like a much more improved experience.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: Yeah. And speedier. And I love the idea that you can kind of go back to some questions.
If you want to do your verbal first or your quantitative first, that's up to you. Those are great features. Tell me a little bit about the scoring, because I think it's still kind of on an 800. Well, it's not really 800 anymore, but it's similar. Right. So walk us through how it's scored and all that stuff.
[00:13:39] Speaker C: Yeah. So this is an important conversation, and there's a lot of question about this in the market, so this will take a little bit of time.
And certainly if you're familiar with the previous version of the GMAT, the 200 to 800, you'll notice the score scale is different.
We basically ended a five, and that's mostly for practical purposes.
The scores are valid for five years. We wanted to make sure that individuals from, say, admissions to perhaps employers who might use these scores, could quickly distinguish between the two versions and make fair, appropriate decisions when looking at the score. So we didn't want it to stay on the 200 to 800, but we didn't want to get too far from the 200 to 800. Okay. And so as we talked to our advisory group, we kind of landed on a 205 to eight five.
[00:14:30] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:14:30] Speaker C: But the challenge is that's not a direct comparison. So let me give you a little bit more background. And you started talking a bit about this when you alluded to taking the exam on paper.
So the current score scale for the GMAT exam was set back in 1997 and that's when we made the exam computer adaptive.
Since then, the population that takes the GMAT has changed dramatically. It's become significantly globalized.
The original population wasn't as global. And this change in the population has had a direct impact on the means, increasing year over year.
And this inflation in the score distribution has been problematic. It makes it harder for test takers to really stand out. It makes it harder for schools to really distinguish performance.
And so with Focus, we really wanted to target this issue and bring the score distribution closer to its original bell shaped curve when we first launched it. And so we recentered the mean, we shifted the score scale downward. And that's the first part of what's going on here. With the change in the score scale, it's also important to remember, as I alluded to earlier, that we redesigned the Focus Edition to target those specific skill sets. So critical thinking, problem solving, and data literacy. So that had to be accounted for. Additionally, we're now including all three sections in the total score scale. Right. It's quant verbal and data insights. Previously it was just quant and verbal, right. And then finally there's the new question review and edit feature which is going to change test taker behavior, test taker strategy. So putting all of that into the mix, we really thought it was a good time to adjust, to reset and recalibrate, to make sure that we were ready for the future and providing business schools and business school candidates with the best information about their performance.
[00:16:37] Speaker A: So I think this is a brilliant move just because I took the test many years ago and I remember what my kind of percentile score in the math section was, and it was pretty good. And then I remember looking more recently at what that same raw score would have netted me as a percentile. And it's been drifting down over the years for precisely the reason you point out, which is that more and more people are taking the test around the world. And many of them are really good at the math section, I guess. So that's been kind of it's almost like they're blowing the curve because they're doing so well. So I'm really glad that this is going to get ironed out a bit because I think as an admissions person, or I used to read files at Wharton, it's nice to have that granularity when you're looking at two candidates and being able to really see some of these finer distinctions. I also think it's great that I didn't realize all three sections are part of the main score now. And that makes a world of sense to me because with the IR before, that was always a separate score, right? It was just on its own. And so I think it's great to incorporate that.
So does that mean just getting down to brass tax with these numbers.
So someone who takes the GMAT, the old version, and gets like a 700 on their math and verbal, if they were to take the test again and take the Focused Edition, am I hearing from you that they might actually have a lower score overall, but the schools have been kind of made aware of that, right? Is that how it's going to work?
[00:18:00] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.
The scores are going to feel lower, right, because people are just used to certain ranges and benchmarks.
But the truth is, the performance is really consistent. And so we have redirected sort of schools. And you're right, we've spent a lot of time with schools. We continue to spend time with schools, educating them on the changes. We've done lots of training, and so they'll be ready once those scores start flowing. But we actually redirected the focus onto percentiles.
And as you've alluded to, the percentiles have always been there on those score reports, they're just now getting more attention as we're evolving to the Focus Edition. So the question is, then how do you understand how you performed relatively across the two versions if you can't directly compare the scores?
And the way to do it is to use the percentile information.
So, just for the audience, I'm sure most of them are aware, but percentile rankings indicate what percentage of test takers a candidate performed better than.
[00:19:08] Speaker A: Right?
[00:19:08] Speaker C: So, for example, if you have a percentile ranking of 80%, that means that you perform better than 80% of the other test takers. So if you go right now to our percentile tables, you'll see that the GMAT exam, the current version, a total score of 680, is about that 80th percentile.
[00:19:28] Speaker A: Right?
[00:19:29] Speaker C: But we've also published percentile data for Focus Edition. And if you're looking for that 80th percentile, you now see that that score is about a 615, right? So that feels a bit different, 615, 680. But honestly, it's the same level of performance. By achieving a 615, you still did better than 80% of the test takers. And so it's important to realize that and all this information, we're being very transparent about it. We're providing it to the schools, certainly, but we're also providing it on Mba.com. And there's tables called concordance tables. Essentially, they're conversion tables, which allow you to use that percentile to understand how to read your performance across the GMAT Exam and the GMAT Focus Edition.
[00:20:18] Speaker A: Got it. And I will say, normally when I do this podcast, I have a co host. His name is Alex Brown. He used to work in admissions at Wharton, and he always bemoans the fact that he's a little bit older than me. And when he had taken the test, I guess he remembers the days where the average score at a place like Wharton was 660 or something. And so it's nice to see it sounds like things are being sort of set. It's kind of a reset happening a little bit which is smart.
I would be remiss if I didn't ask you a little bit about the GRE, because I couldn't help but notice that as soon as you all announced the Focus edition, which I mean to me, based on everything you've said today sounds like it was a very involved and long process, working with schools, employers, candidates to really hone in on the right sort of test here. But I noticed that GRE, it seemed like within days, they announced that they too have a new version of the GRE and that theirs is shorter too. Now it's 2 hours or what for you under the surface, what are some of the key differences? I mean, they claim their test is new as well. How do you feel about that?
[00:21:24] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's a great question, and it's going to be a decision point for individuals applying to business school. But I think it's a fairly straightforward decision. So let me talk a little bit about that.
First of all, GMAT is the exam that's preferred by business schools. It's accepted by 2400 business schools around the world, twice as many as the GRE. And that's because it's the only test designed specifically for business school, right? Remember, the GRE is a general test. It's not specifically a business school test. And if you look at publicly available data and you look at GMAT and across GMAT and GRE test takers around the world, more than seven in ten rely on the GMAT to get into business school. And if you look at closer to home, if you look at some of the US. News and World Report data, you can see that two in three acceptances to top US. Business schools are made using a GMAT score. So that's all great, right? That's important. But I want to talk a little bit more about specifically some more detailed benefits to the test taker that the Focus Edition brings to light.
We really wanted to make sure that GMAT Focus also helped reduce some of that exam day stress. There's enough stress with this whole process of applying to business school, and it's a big inflection point for many in their lives and in their careers. So a lot of the work we did was to make sure that we weren't adding unnecessary additional pressure. So one of the places that sort of comes to light is on the amount of time you have to answer each question on GMAT Focus. You have over two minutes to answer each question, which is about 25% more time per question, on average, than the updated GRE offers. So even though the new GRE is shorter than the GMAT, as you said, by about 15 minutes, it can be a much more stressful experience because they've packed in many more questions into that smaller package. So that's one important piece around stress.
The other thing is we've given test takers a lot more control with GMAP Focus.
With Focus edition, you can choose to send your scores actually, after you know how you performed on the GRE, you have to select your free scores at your schools before you even get a chance to know how you did on the first question. So that's an important part of reducing the pressure. Find out the score, determine if you like it, and then send it. You also with GMAT Focus, you get to see which scores schools see.
Just because you've taken the exam multiple times doesn't mean the schools are going to get every score. You decide the score you're proud of, and you only need to send that individual attempt. And then finally, when it comes to turnaround, we've really taken this to heart, too. We got a lot of feedback over the years that sometimes candidates put things off right. They wait till the last minute deadlines are approaching. We understand that's the way it works. So we've reduced the amount of time it takes to receive the official score report down to three to five days. Wow. With GRE, you still have to wait eight to ten days. So that could really be the difference between hitting or missing a deadline. And then, really, the last piece, Graham, that I want to just throw in is and we've talked a bit about it. It's this data insight section. I think we've really gotten ahead of where the market is going, providing schools information that is highly relevant, highly current around data analytics capabilities. And GMAT Focus is the only business school admissions exam that provides that information.
[00:25:04] Speaker A: To I mean, it sounds super. I think, you know, you've said this a couple of times as we've been having this discussion, but just the notion that this is the test for business schools, kind of designed by business schools and by business recruiters, et cetera, right. So it just makes a lot of sense to me, and I think that some of these features are pretty amazing. I did not know, for example, that you get the score report so quickly. I remember back again, back when I took the test, you had to wait weeks to get the official score report by mail, et cetera.
Yeah, this is great. And it seems like it's moving at the speed of our digital age. Question for you about the old test. So I know that for now, people are still taking the kind of old version of the GMAT and that people can start taking the focus. I think it's November 7, but is the old test going away? What's the timeline on that? I don't know if that's public yet or what you can say, but I know eventually it's going to go away.
[00:25:58] Speaker C: Right? Yeah. The GMAT Focus Edition is just the next version of the GMAT, so it will become the only version available early next year. We haven't published the exact date. It's coming soon. Okay. They will overlap for a period of time we got that specifically for a number of reasons. One is schools wanted us to kind of give some overlap time.
[00:26:22] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:26:22] Speaker C: We also know that test takers might be preparing. We didn't want to pull the rug out. And although we have kind of announced this quite early to give them time, we just wanted to have a bit of overlap so that everyone could kind of make the choice that is best for them for their admissions deadlines and also have time to understand what the differences are.
[00:26:43] Speaker A: Okay, last question I have for you is really around prepping for this exam. So I know many of the people tuned in are planning to apply to business school. And so sometimes a test is obviously a part of that process, and they're looking ahead to prepare. And I was wondering kind of two questions, I guess. One is, can I trust a test prep firm, given that it's a brand new exam? And so how do the test prep firms know how to get somebody ready? And also, I think you guys have some official materials, right, that give people access to sample questions or even sample tests. Is that right? And maybe you could talk a little bit about that.
[00:27:19] Speaker C: Yeah, so that's a great question. So, as I talked about, we are training schools around the world. We're also having conferences and summits with test prep organizations around the world, really training them on the changes, the differences, and what they need to know. So that is an important part of our process and why we've kind of given this long runway with testing going live November 7. So they're going to be fully briefed.
I'm sure many of them will take it immediately to make sure that they understand it. I'm sure they've already looked at the prep. And so the prep has been available since June. We have a full suite of prep products, practice exams, practice questions, some of it's free. And that's actually where I'd recommend starting. So with the Shorter Focus edition, we believe candidates, if they want to, can get ready in just six weeks. And so we've delivered or we've developed a free six week study planner, and it allows test takers to stick to a schedule and really guide them through their prep and track progress. And of course, it includes 70 GMAT questions, two full length practice exams that are all free for establishing the baseline. Certainly then they can go out and purchase additional practice if they need to. But that's all been available since June, and it's available on Mba.com.
[00:28:46] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, I'll make sure I put a URL in the podcast description here so people can find it. So it sounds like yeah. I think that's probably a big surprise to a lot of our listeners that you work actively with some of these test prep companies to make sure they're up to speed, which I think is great. Right? Because you wouldn't want. Them kind of training people on something they don't really know about. Right. So it's really great that you have those meetings and things.
[00:29:09] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's an important part of this process. We know that change is hard, but it's been a priority for our organization to get in front of as much of the market as possible.
[00:29:21] Speaker A: Yeah, well, Manish, I really appreciate you making time to come on the show and to just help kind of unveil this new exam, which just sounds like such a know, everyone always says new and improved. I think that's really true in this.
You know, obviously I would have loved to have taken this version of the test myself, but thank you so much for all your time and yeah, just really appreciate you joining us today.
[00:29:45] Speaker C: Definitely, Graham, thanks for having me. And remember to the listeners, registration is open now for the Focus Edition. Testing starts November 7. Just go to mba.com and you'll get all the information and you can register.
[00:29:57] Speaker A: All right, perfect. So thanks everyone for tuning in. Stay tuned for more episodes of the Clear Admit MBA Admissions podcast and we will see you sooner.
