[00:00:15] Speaker A: Welcome to the Clearadmit MBA Admissions Podcast. I'm your host, Graham Richmond, and this special episode is part of our very popular Admissions Director Q A series. Today I'm thrilled to welcome Jamie Shine from Stanford's Graduate School of Business. Jamie's title is Interim Assistant Dean for Admissions and Financial Aid, and she has a range of experience working at Stanford and in the private sector. I'm going to let her kind of unpack all that. But I did want to mention that what I think is fantastic about having her on the show today is that she's actually sat in the Career Services office, in the program office, and now in the Admissions and Financial Aid office. And so this is kind of a rare occasion to have someone who's seen kind of, I guess we could say input, output, know, kind of in program things happening on campus. So I wanted to welcome Jamie. Welcome to the show. It's so great to have you.
[00:01:04] Speaker B: Thanks, Graham. It's really nice to be here with.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: I also I totally forgot to mention that you did your MBA at Stanford. So why don't you just tell us a little bit about your background, maybe from when you graduated. Just give us the highlights of how you kind of landed in this current role and some of the things you've done at Stanford.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: Sure, happy to. Well, when I graduated from the GSB, I went into product management, as many of our Alums or grads today do. I stayed in tech and primarily enterprise software for about a decade. I was product manager, then director of Product management, and eventually chief marketing Officer in different companies. Then I shifted focus for several years when my kids were growing up and I served in a series of volunteer roles. I was the head of our local elementary school district education foundation. I was on the governing board of that school district. And then, fun fact, I opened a neighborhood frozen yogurt store oh, wow. With a friend from the GSB, where we ended up employing a lot of high school and community college kids. So that was a great experience. Interesting. And when that chapter ended, that's when I came back to Stanford. So I really enjoyed being connected with my community, and I felt like coming back to Stanford would be reconnecting to a different community, and that has certainly been the case. I've been here for ten years, as you mentioned, I was in the MBA program office for six years where I ran different co curricular programs. I worked with faculty on the core curriculum, and I led various strategic initiatives for the program.
Then I moved into Career Management, and I led the Career Management Center for four years and joined the admissions team this past June as interim assistant dean.
[00:03:02] Speaker A: Yeah, this is great. I just can't help but think that your experience, both in the program and on kind of what we call the output side with careers has got to be incredibly useful as you work on the admissions side. Now, I know that this is more of a recent role for you, but I did want to ask you what's something you like about this work on the admissions side and is there anything you don't like?
[00:03:25] Speaker B: Yes, that's a great question and I guess I would answer that looking at different sides of the same coin. So as an alum and through my years of the GSB, I've seen how transformational I've seen and I've experienced how transformational business school can be. And we can offer that experience to a finite number of people every year. And so that's really wonderful to know that the students who are coming in will really experience this wonderful transformational program. And then the flip side is knowing that there are others out there who could also excel in the program and we are not able to offer them that opportunity.
[00:04:13] Speaker A: Yeah, that is a great point. I used to work in admissions too, and I always felt like, yeah, there were plenty of people in the applicant pool who were totally qualified and could, as you say, excel in the program. And it's always that it's great to give the experience to those who get in, but it is hard to say no to others. Tell me about a Stanford stereotype that you'd like to debunk for our listeners.
[00:04:36] Speaker B: Well, there is a myth that Stanford is only for students who are interested in entrepreneurship or tech. And what I would say to that is, if you have those aspirations, then Stanford is a great place to study. We're in the heart of Silicon Valley, as people tend to know.
I actually like to look at our strengths from a different angle. And what I believe Stanford and Stanford Business School really excel at are innovation. So our faculty in different disciplines marketing, finance, economics demonstrate that two of our faculty recently won Nobel Prizes in economics.
And our students go into industries more broadly than tech, and many join companies rather than start them. And they still are change makers. They're change makers across different industries and different fields. They go into everything from social impact to healthcare to venture capital to media.
They found companies and they join companies. So for me, one of the things I find really interesting, and I saw this in the Career Management Center was the diversity of post GSB paths that our business school graduates take and how that really represents the diversity of their interests and their passions.
[00:06:07] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great point. And I think my view is when you go somewhere like Stanford, you can sort of do any number of things. As you're pointing out, that's always been kind of the world is your oyster. Right? So I just feel like the opportunities are abundant. I did want to know, speaking of kind of just what's going on there in terms of people heading off into different fields, et cetera. But I did want to know is there anything that you're particularly wanting our listeners to know more about? Like something that's maybe happening on campus or is going to happen, that's planned, that you just want people to know about?
[00:06:41] Speaker B: Yeah, there's something that's happening and is sort of rolling out at the same time. So we the university opened the Door School of Sustainability last year and that school is developing more and more offerings that our students will be able to take advantage of and we expect our students to spend quite some time working with faculty from the Door School. There are opportunities across a host of different disciplines that people can take a look at. At the Door School website but things like sustainable energy, climate change, sustainable decision making and with the GSB and the Door School have jointly launched a program to support students who want to build public or private or nonprofit sector organizations that take sustainability solutions to scale. So we're really excited to have that as part of our offering available to students.
[00:07:41] Speaker A: That makes sense. I will say we've been doing a little bit of research with our audience on not just the podcast listeners, but people who are
[email protected]. And sustainability is like a recurring theme, I think it's sort of everywhere now in terms of a lot of the major strategy consulting firms are working with large companies who are addressing these issues now head on. So good timing there. I want to shift gears and talk a little bit about the application process. I know that's on the minds of many of our listeners and so I wondered if you could kind of just pull back the curtain and walk us through the life of an application. I feel like on our end with candidates, they're spending hours and hours writing their essays and uploading their data forms and things. And then they press submit, and it's almost like this weird there's this silence, and they don't know what's happening necessarily behind the scenes as they wait for the next step, which could be an interview invitation or something. So what happens on your end after someone presses submit?
[00:08:42] Speaker B: That's a great question and that's where we are right now. So the applicants pressed submit a couple of weeks ago and so we are busy indeed focusing on those applications. And what we say in the office is that evaluating applications is part science and part art. We know that some things we can quantify, but other things we cannot. And that's because behind every application is a person and we like to consider that individual holistically.
We look at their individual strengths as well as their accomplishments and it's also important for us to stay focused on and for applicants to think about the fact that we're really looking for an applicant's strengths. We're not trying to poke through and find weaknesses, we're trying to identify their strengths. So practically speaking.
Once the application deadline passes, our staff prepares the applications for review. And then over the next few weeks, our staff members read all the applications and decide which of the strongest candidates we want to invite in for an interview. Then the interview assessments are added to the applicant's file. Then the admissions committee will review the interview file in combination with the written application.
And then on decision notification, our office emails all applicants and alerts them to log into their account to view their updated admissions decision.
And one thing I just want to close with this one is to say that we recognize the tremendous amount of time and effort that people put into their applications, just as you said. And so we like to honor that by ensuring that we too are spending time and effort to do a thoughtful and thorough review of every application.
[00:10:45] Speaker A: I did want to ask you a little bit about the essays. And if you had to give candidates one tip when it comes to producing the written content, what would it be?
[00:10:57] Speaker B: I would say to think.
To think a lot and then write.
We ask you all about your values and your passions and your ideas and your experiences and your aspirations, and also about how earning your MBA at Stanford will enable you to realize your ambitions. So what's really helpful for us are the reflective and insightful essays that help us envision the individual behind all the experiences and accomplishments that we read about elsewhere in your application. So we have a place for you to record your accomplishments and your impact. And so it's really revealing who the writers are as people that is helpful for us. So I want to emphasize that essays aren't the entirety of your application. As you mentioned, we look at the whole thing so you don't have to put all of your accomplishments in your essay. In fact, our goal for reading the essays is to understand the world and how you see the world and how you become the person you are today. So when you think, think about your authentic self. Write about yourself. Don't write for admissions and what you think we want to hear. We want you to share who you are and to take the time to reflect on one of life's most important questions what matters to you most and why?
[00:12:33] Speaker A: Yeah, so that is a perfect segue, because I wanted to dig a little deeper into that question, because the first essay, which, just in case our listeners haven't seen it, it's what matters most to you and why. And that question has been kind of the mainstay of your admissions process for many years. Like, it's an essay that's unchanged, at least so far as I can recall. It's been more or less the same wording for a long time. And I just wondered, what do you and your colleagues like about this question? And how do you find it helpful in the assessment process.
[00:13:06] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I alluded that in the previous answer where I talked about accomplishments versus who you are. So we sort of think about what you've done and the who you are. So we really get the what from other parts of the application, like resume, letter of recommendations, and we have an opportunity for people to write about various different impacts they've had. That's an optional section then, in the what matters most to you and why, we like to learn more about who you are. And I like that question because it helps us understand your values and passions and importantly, the perspective you would bring to the GSB community. We're really looking at how you would contribute to the class, and that's why we really encourage people to reflect deeply and write from the heart.
[00:14:05] Speaker A: Yeah, and I just want to go back to what you said earlier, which is think before you write. I feel like this is one of those essay topics that really requires that. And I think someone on your team at some point said this idea of maybe taking some time and keeping a running list or a journal of just things that have happened in your life that are important to you. And looking at that list and seeing if something comes out of that before you kind of start just trying to figure out what is it that matters? And start just writing. So this idea of doing almost like a personal inventory or something appreciate you shedding some light on that. I did want to turn to the interview process at Stanford. Any tips on you mentioned that the file goes through a review and then some candidates, the strongest, are going to be invited to interview. But how does one prepare for that interview and what should they expect as that kind of piece of the process takes place?
[00:15:03] Speaker B: Well, as you said, we review the applications and then we may invite you to interview. And we really look at the interview as a great way for us to learn more about the applicant and for the applicant to learn more about the Stanford GSB. So typically a member of the alumni community or a member of the admissions staff will ask questions that will help us evaluate your candidacy. And you'll have the opportunity to ask questions as well to see if the Stanford GSB is the right school for you. So our interviews primarily focus on understanding what you've done and also how you've done it. So we really look for sort of professional, meaningful professional or community based experiences that you can talk about. And really what is very helpful is to talk about specific examples. So when you talk about something, talk about not only the what so what did you do, but the so what, why did it matter, what impact did it have, what did it change?
And then once you've talked about yourself, you can really think about other ways you've impacted others. So have you had experience? Have you taught someone? Did you innovate in a way that will last after you've moved on? So really thinking about how you have impacted the organizations that you've touched and then finally that's okay, just finally, I was going to say, think of some questions you want to ask the interviewer because our alumni are interviewing because they want to give back to the school. And one of the ways they can give back is to share with the people that they interview insights they had about their GSB experience.
[00:17:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it actually sounds like a really great opportunity in terms of connecting a prospective student with a graduate of the program to get that insight. I love that line that you just said about it's not just the what, it's the so what. That's a great way to think of it in terms of sharing experiences, I guess. One question I had before we move on, I did want to understand, and I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit, but just do the alumni, what do they know when they sit down with a candidate? Have they read the entire application, or is it more like they have a resume? If that's the case, can the candidate speak to things that are in the file? Or is the idea oh, no, only cover new stuff? How about that aspect to this?
[00:17:44] Speaker B: Yes. So they see the resume.
[00:17:47] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:17:47] Speaker B: And what I would say is that during the interview, you can talk about whatever you want to talk about, knowing that the interviewer has only seen the resume. So if you want to introduce a new topic or something that's not on the resume, it might take a little bit of context to understand.
[00:18:09] Speaker A: Okay, that makes sense. Very helpful. I want to ask also if you have any know you're overseeing a couple of different programs, right? You have the MBA, and even within the MBA, there's some people applying via deferred enrollment. We also, before we kind of came on air here, we talked a little bit about your MSX program. And so I just wondered, is there any advice for candidates who are looking at these other paths to study kind of management at Stanford?
[00:18:37] Speaker B: Sure.
So let's start with the deferred candidates. So deferred enrollment candidates.
[00:18:43] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:18:43] Speaker B: So if, if someone is a college senior or a graduate student who's begun a master's, a PhD, a law, or a medical degree in the academic year immediately following their undergraduate program, then they can look at deferred enrollment. So deferred enrollment is really designed for individuals who haven't started working full time after university.
[00:19:08] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:19:10] Speaker B: So I guess I would offer some advice while they're in school, and that is to really pursue academic areas that are most interesting and engaging for you and then to get involved or step into leadership roles in organizations. Again, that are meaningful for you because there are lots of different ways that you can demonstrate leadership. It doesn't have to just be in a professional setting. It can be in an academic or community setting as well.
[00:19:40] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:19:41] Speaker B: And then if there's the opportunity to explore career interests through internships, that's also another great type of experience to get for our deferred enrollment candidates.
We really look at how our applicants pursue opportunities that enable them to build expertise, enhance skills and knowledge, and expand their perspective. So that's something to think about if you're thinking about applying as a deferred enrollment candidate.
[00:20:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess one of the things I'm thinking of is and I think you're sort of saying that the lens is shine. It sort of shines a little bit brighter on the undergraduate experience because that's what you're kind of working with when you're assessing someone for deferred enrollment. Right. They haven't been out in the workforce. But I guess what you're saying is often we do hear from younger candidates or current college students, oh, how am I going to have the leadership experience? That someone who's been working for four years at an investment bank or at a tech company. And it sounds like you're very willing to look at what they've done on campus and the way they've gotten involved there, which is terrific. Do you want to talk at all about the MSX program? And I mean, that's sort of a different path too, but I don't know if you wanted to say anything about it.
[00:20:59] Speaker B: Sure. The MSX program is a program.
It's a master's of science in management for experienced leaders. So it does require a minimum number of years of work experience. You have to have over seven years of work experience. And it's really for people who, rather than taking a full two years with an internship, are looking for a way to invest in themselves for a year. Okay. It's a four quarter program, and it's the opportunity, say you are moving along on a pathway. You want to round out your skill set. So maybe you're an engineer and you've been in engineering roles and want to take that step to management and really want to round out some business skills or some leadership skills. The MSX program is a great opportunity to do that.
The MSX program starts in the summer quarter. So the first quarter, that got the campus to themselves, and then they're joined by MBA students and join clubs and take classes together with MBA students. So it's more of an integrated experience the last three quarters there on campus.
[00:22:11] Speaker A: Got it. Okay. So I guess between deferred traditional MBA and then MSX, you kind of COVID the kind of younger to older range of the spectrum, which is great. I guess I did want to ask, is there anything else that you wanted to share about? I assume we're post COVID. I assume everything's kind of open again on campus. Everything's kind of back to the way that it was, more or less. And people can come and visit. I presume you're regularly doing kind of info sessions or there's a campus tour, all that kind of stuff is ongoing.
[00:22:43] Speaker B: You're right. We are having campus visits and class visits, so that is starting up as well. If you can't come to campus, though, I hope people don't feel like that's a requirement. We really are just making that available to people who have the flexibility to come to the campus, but it in no way is noted as a part of the application. Okay. And yeah, so we're just really excited to actually see people live and in person.
[00:23:16] Speaker A: I'll bet.
[00:23:17] Speaker B: One thing, our interviews will stay virtual. We just found that that leveled playing field and we're going to continue to do that.
[00:23:25] Speaker A: Yeah. And actually I think a lot of leading MBA programs are continuing with virtual interviews, so that makes a lot of sense. I appreciate you clarifying that. Campus visits not required. Obviously if you're in the area or can do it and have that flexibility, great. Having been to your campus, I will say it's gorgeous. It is really inspiring to come. So if people are able, it's always nice to see it up close. I did want to say Jamie, so you shed a ton of light on your process and I think there's just a lot of great nuggets for everyone who's tuned in today. I did want to ask, if you'll play along, we have this fun kind of lightning round of questions that we always like to do with admissions directors. And the reason we do it is just so that applicants can better understand that you are a regular person and not some kind of gatekeeper or something. So if you'll play along, we'll do these kind of rapid fire and just see what you have to say. All right.
[00:24:19] Speaker B: Oh dear. Okay, I'm taking a deep breath here.
[00:24:21] Speaker A: Okay. All right, so first one is coffee or tea.
[00:24:24] Speaker B: Oh, well, that's an easy start. Coffee.
[00:24:26] Speaker A: All right. Beach or mountains?
[00:24:28] Speaker B: Oh, definitely another easy one for me. Beach.
[00:24:32] Speaker A: Oh, interesting. I thought you were going to say mountains because you did do some mentioned to me were doing some traveling over the summer that involved hiking, so I wasn't sure, but I guess you're living in California. Probably hard not to say beat.
All right. Morning person or night owl?
[00:24:46] Speaker B: Well, I am a night owl, although I must say I'm trying to shift to be more of a morning person.
[00:24:51] Speaker A: And never too late. Full disclosure, we're doing this pretty early for you, so I do appreciate that, especially now that I know that you're a night owl. All right, what about a pet peeve you have?
[00:25:03] Speaker B: My pet peeve is when people use apostrophes for plural words.
[00:25:10] Speaker A: Okay, excellent.
Let's see. Guilty pleasure.
[00:25:17] Speaker B: I guess I would say since I'm spending a lot of time reading in the office these days? Afternoon snacks in the office preferably chocolate.
[00:25:27] Speaker A: Excellent. What's your favorite virtue? In others.
[00:25:36] Speaker B: I would say true kindness.
[00:25:39] Speaker A: Okay, excellent. What about a happy place, somewhere that you just love to go, where you're in your element?
[00:25:49] Speaker B: Well, no surprise, given that I'm a beach person.
My happy place would be a sunny day on a boat in a bay where the water is warm and clear.
[00:26:01] Speaker A: Excellent.
What about a comfort food? And you can't say chocolate because you just used that before.
[00:26:08] Speaker B: No, can't say chocolate. My comfort food is paella.
[00:26:11] Speaker A: Oh, wow.
[00:26:12] Speaker B: The Spanish rice dish, which I love to make and I love to eat.
[00:26:16] Speaker A: Yeah, that is delicious. Now I'm hungry. All right, so how about a proudest moment?
[00:26:21] Speaker B: Well, since we're talking about Sanford and the GSB, I would say if I go back a while, my proudest moment was when I found out that I had been accepted to the GSB. That feeling still sticks with me. But then if I think more recently, I have two adult daughters, and I would say I'm always proud when I'm with my daughters and seeing how they've grown into thoughtful, engaging, and compassionate adults.
[00:26:53] Speaker A: Okay, excellent. Any regrets? Is there something you wish you'd done differently?
[00:27:00] Speaker B: Well, fun fact, I try to live my life without regret, and that doesn't mean that I haven't made mistakes. There are definitely things that, in retrospect, I could or should have done differently.
And as time passes, I don't really mind revisiting those decisions, but I like to think of them and think about where they led me and what lessons I've learned and how they've impacted future decisions that I made.
[00:27:26] Speaker A: Okay, that makes sense. And also, it's kind of useful, I think, for candidates who are thinking about writing essays about failure or for many MBA programs, ask about learning experiences. So that's great.
What about a superpower that you wish you had, if you could pick one?
[00:27:46] Speaker B: Well, sort of related to having adult daughters and family out of the area. Guess the superpower I wish I had was that I could travel at the speed of light and be with people I love at a moment's notice.
[00:27:59] Speaker A: Oh, that's great. I often feel that way, too, because I live overseas and yeah, the ability to kind of get somewhere faster would be nice. All right, two more fun questions here. The first one is which part of the Stanford admissions process would you most like to skip if you were applying today?
[00:28:17] Speaker B: Well, I can tell you what I'd be tempted to skip, and this may resonate with people who have applied or are applying, and that's the application form itself. So many people focus on their essays, and they save the form to the end, thinking they can just kind of do it really quickly.
But it's actually really detailed. So it may be kind of a pain. But on the positive side, it gives us the opportunity and gives the applicants an opportunity to share more context about their accomplishments. So even though I might be tempted to skip it, I'd tell people, don't skip it.
[00:28:55] Speaker A: So you're actually underlining a really great admissions tip that we talk a lot about. I think there's, like a little article about
[email protected], but I think you're right. People spend all this time on the essays and they think about preparing for their interviews, and then the eve of submitting the application, they remember that they have to fill out what they think is going to be, like, name, address, maybe like, upload a resume. But as you point out, in reality, it's a little more involved than that.
[00:29:18] Speaker B: It is.
[00:29:19] Speaker A: And one of the things I've been learning and talking to folks like yourself is that when you pick up the application to read virtually, I guess, because it's online and things, but when you're reading it, a lot of that data form stuff is kind of the first stuff you might see. And so it sort of sets the stage for the essays that follow and everything else. So I think you're underlining a great tip, which is do not leave the data form for the end. All right, the last thing is totally just fun. I do this more for my own selfish interest, but what's the best thing that you read, watched, or listened to recently?
[00:29:51] Speaker B: Yeah, well, the book I've read recently is one that really stuck with me, and it's definitely an investment, but it's The Ministry for the Future by Kim Stanley Robinson. And it's intense. It's a really intense book, and it addresses an important topic, which is climate change, and it really vividly illustrates the impact of climate change on the planet. There's sort of a first scene of the book that you'll never forget, and the author also offers some out of the box ideas that do give a little glimmer of hope to hang on to as well. So it's intense, but I really like the bits of optimism and creativity that come throughout the book.
[00:30:42] Speaker A: Excellent. That's great. Appreciate the tip. Jamie, thank you so much for taking some time out of your busy schedule. I know you're in the middle of reading applications and it's like we're in the middle of the admission season. So thank you so much for making some time to chat. It was just a pleasure to connect and hear all of your advice.
[00:30:58] Speaker B: Thank you, Graham. I enjoyed it.
[00:31:00] Speaker A: All right, so everyone please stay tuned to the Clearadmit MBA Admissions podcast for more admissions Director Q as, as well as our weekly Wiretaps episodes. And as always, thanks for rating and reviewing this podcast wherever you listen.
Sam.
