Episode Transcript
[00:00:17] Speaker A: Welcome to the Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast. I'm your host, Graham Richmond, and this episode is part of our Admissions Director Q and A series. Today, I'm delighted to welcome Katie Radahl, Director of MBA admissions at UNC's Kenan Flagler business School. Katie has been part of the UNC Kenan Flagler team as Director of MBA Admissions for the past two years. Prior to this role, she led associate recruiting at McKinsey Atlanta, and prior to that, she was with the MIT Sloan School of Management. Her tenure at MIT Sloan included helping establish the Asia School of Business in collaboration with Sloan and supporting the launch of its flagship MBA program. With time spent working across both Boston and Kuala Lumpur. Katie joined mit back in 2011 with the launch of the Executive MBA, where she managed the EMBA Student Life and Learning team and later served as Senior Associate Director of Admissions. She holds a BS in Recreation Management Tourism from Arizona State University and an MA in Intercultural Relations from Lesley University. Welcome to the Cleared Mint Podcast, Katie. It's great to see you.
[00:01:23] Speaker B: Thanks, Graham. I'm excited to be here. I've listened to a lot of the podcasts over the years, and I'm glad that it's my chance to be on with you today.
[00:01:32] Speaker A: Yeah, we were. I was so glad when you wrote back and said you could do this. And I have to ask you, remind me at some point in this interview. You know, you have this really interesting background, obviously with a couple of great business schools in Kenan Flagler and MIT, but also this role at McKinsey. And I just. Hopefully we'll get to hear a little bit about that because I know a lot of our listeners are interested in consulting. So you've got. You've worn a number of hats, and I think it's gonna be really interesting. Why don't you tell us a little bit about this journey, though? I gave the bio, but I always am curious to understand the why behind the different steps or, you know, whatever you want to share. So tell us a little bit about the path that led you to this role.
[00:02:06] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I know my academic background doesn't scream business school. It screams love of travel, which is definitely in there. Having lived and worked in Malaysia and prior to working in management education, actually worked in the tourism industry for about 10 years across the Mediterranean countries. But in graduate school, I knew I wanted to transition to working with senior leaders in some capacity of whether it was coaching or development.
And I ran into a friend in Boston who was also part of the MIT launch team and said, well, we need some help. We have this brand new program and I said, I need an internship in order to graduate. And that's how I found my way into mit. So I think the lesson for me right away was always say yes. You never know where that conversation on the street is going to lead you. And I ended up spending 10 years working with MBA students across MIT's different avenues, which ultimately led me to McKinsey during COVID I think like a lot of people, I needed a reset. We were all home, and I had always been interested in what our students did when they were not at school anymore, whether it was in the summer, how they were putting their tools into use. And then post graduation, while living in Asia, I got a little bit of exposure to this, seeing how some of the large tech firms had conferences for their interns in the middle of the summer, usually focused on entrepreneurship, innovation, hackathons. And it really stuck in my brain when I came back to the US and came back to Sloan, that that was somewhere that I wanted to continue to explore. So that led me to McKinsey, where not only did I lead associate recruiting, both meeting students that wanted to come to our Atlanta office, but also supported a campus, a top business school, in helping their MBA students find the right location and encourage them to consider McKinsey.
I also got the opportunity to lead the career piece of our summer intern program and work with senior partners, senior leaders on the career development side of the consulting experience.
And that really sealed for me that I love watching students and being a part of the their journey in navigating what's next for them, taking a step back to learn and implement what new tools and frameworks they've acquired along the way and have that sort of repetitive learning experience.
Once Covid restrictions lifted and I got to go on campus and meet students in person, it was pretty clear to my team that that was where I really thrived, was when I was back on campus.
And so when the opportunity to join the team at UNC Kenan FL Alert popped up, I didn't hesitate. I knew that this was the right next step for me to be back on campus, working directly with students and bringing with me what I learned. Working at the firm has only made me better at the role that I have now.
[00:05:10] Speaker A: Yeah, and I think this is a perfect segue into the next question I have for you, which is really about admissions work. So it's very clear to me from hearing you talk that you really love the kind of campus environment.
But I also wonder specifically around admissions, and you Know, the selection process, like, what drew you to that? And also, you know, you've been doing it for a little while now. You did some of it even at mit. What keeps you excited about admissions?
[00:05:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's always changing. There's always room for innovation, whether it's more introducing more technology.
A lot of us have played, including us at UNC last year, we launched a video essay which has helped us not only better understand communication styles, but also measure intrinsics. Right. You don't know what question will pop up on the screen.
And so watching a student sort of go through the motions or an applicant go through the motions of, how am I going to tackle this question in the short amount of time given to me has been really, really beneficial to our entire process and every member of the admissions committee. But I think what keeps me drawn to admissions is that we get to see the whole journey of a student.
I love being on the road, meeting people in person, meeting them on zoom and hearing their story. And what that moment was that they realized, oh, I'm missing tools, or my strengths could be stronger, but I just don't have the time to focus on that. And I wasn't as impactful on that project. Or we missed the. We miss the opportunity on this process that we redeveloped. And seeing that business school will give them that time to step away, really learn about what motivates them, where their strengths lie, and sort of unpack some of those blind spots for them. We get to watch that all happen while they're on campus. And then probably the best part is when they're alumni, we always reconnect with them and get to see how much their career has transformed beyond what they could ever have imagined.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I just. Now you've got me imagining, you know, you meet someone on the road or on a zoom call as they're just considering, you know, business school, and then maybe five years later, you're doing an event and you're in a city, wherever it might be, and you need an alum to come out and talk with prospective candidates, and it's a person that you admitted and met, you know, way back when. I just think that's got to be so great to just keep track of that storyline, like you're saying. So it sounds really rewarding.
Give me, though, a misconception that applicants send. So I think we've just painted this great picture of you following the journey of someone. Right. But I think applicants sometimes think of admissions officers in certain ways or even the admissions process. So give me one misconception that you think candidates tend to have.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that it's been a long time in the making that admissions officers or admissions committees are the gatekeeper, that we are rooted in reasons to say no. And it couldn't be more opposite of that. We really are excited to get to know every applicant at every stage of this journey in this process, and we are looking for a true understanding of what's motivating you to be pursuing your mba, to you wanting to join our community so that we can advocate for you in the admissions committee as we look at all the different data points you bring through the application process. I know it's hard to believe that we could be advocating for you in that room at every stage of the process, but we really are looking for reasons and to say yes.
[00:08:35] Speaker A: Yeah, okay. That's great to hear. Should be comforting to some of our listeners, too. How has your thinking about admissions changed over the years? So I'm thinking, you know, several years ago, you know, you were at MIT doing, you know, associate. What were you? Senior Associate Director of Admissions. And, you know, now you hear you've had this experience at McKinsey, and now you're running the admissions office at, you know, Kenan Flagler, unc. So, yeah. How is your thinking about admissions change? Because it's got to have.
[00:09:01] Speaker B: I mean, it has changed a lot. Whether it's how students want to engage, and it really ebbs and flows, sort of cycle to cycle how they show up. Whether it's a heavier emphasis on virtual events, we're seeing a lot more peer collaboration of how we engage with the prospective student audience, which I love. We saw that building a little bit during COVID with zoom exhaustion and zoom fatigue. And I'm glad to see that. It's. Even when I stepped away from admissions, it's continued. And now to be back and be partnering more with our peers has been professionally just really, really exciting and rewarding for everyone on our team. But it really helps the students be in one room at one time.
But one thing I brought with me from the firm, from the private side, is that this experience in admissions is so much more deeply rooted in relationships. We've really doubled down on building those relationships with our candidates at every stage.
Yes, we are collecting information and we're moving through an admissions process. But I think 10 years ago, I was very focused on giving my tips and tricks for an essay or my tips and tricks for the interview, but I wasn't really getting to know anybody.
And it has become so important in this process. That one thing I brought with me from the firm that my team laughs at me about that probably is when I make that admitted student call or they get that email after our first or second or third round with exciting news. My goal is that they don't even think twice. They know that they already see themselves living in Chapel Hill, being a part of the Carolina community, and they say yes on the spot. And that is thriving in the private sector, recruiting for MBAs. And I wanted to bring that with me here. And we've seen it happen. Those are the best days of the year when we get to make those phone calls and people see themselves already a part of our community.
[00:11:04] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I feel like also you're fortunate in that, you know, unc, you know, Kenan Flagler is a really close knit community. And I think that, you know, your team is, you know, has that luxury of being able to get to know the candidate pool and, you know, be out there on the road or on Zoom or wherever you're engaging with them. I also think. Yeah, you're making a really good point also about how things have changed in the sense that I do, you do see a lot more collaborative kind of events. And I mean, clear admit we do, you know, we do a lot of events where we have like five schools on a panel. And I think it's great for candidates because it allows them, you know, like you're saying zoom fatigue. This allows them to hear from like five schools at once. They don't have to go to like five different events. And so, yeah, but things have definitely changed. What about what's something that you think applicants tend to worry about far more than they probably should.
[00:11:53] Speaker B: There's probably more than one, but I think I talk a lot about timing, especially this where we are right now in the early stages of the admission cycle for the next class of 2029. I talk a lot with students about our prospective students, about the perfect time. And there really is no perfect time to pause and take a step away from your career. I think there are certainly better times if you have a lot of events happening in your life, that it may be better to focus on those events and finding your feet underneath you before adding this very transformational experience of an mba. But eventually you have to ask yourself, is this really an opportunity that I want to step away from now, or do you want to intentionally push it off for a future year? And that's really only an answer that a prospective student has.
[00:12:47] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's funny, we talk a lot on the regular Kind of weekly Clear Admit podcast shows that we do about timing and how it's so interesting how candidates sometimes react to the sort of the job market or the like what's happening now. And I always have to point out to them that like if you apply to business school now, you won't be graduating for like three years because you gotta, you know, this year you'll get in, then you'll start next year, a couple years later you're graduating. It won't even, won't even have the same president.
[00:13:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:14] Speaker A: You know, so there's just, it's this idea of like timing the market too. Sometimes I think people get overly sort of obsessive about that because you just never know really. Right. So in any event, but I think you're also right. People have their different points in your career that where it can make sense. So yeah, that, that's something obviously that they could be reflecting on. Looking back over students you've admitted in the last couple of years or even maybe during your time at MIT too, what qualities would you say tend to distinguish the students who get the most out of the MBA experience?
[00:13:45] Speaker B: I think what comes to mind first is just a level of self awareness and curiosity. The application process is intentionally designed to be self reflective. You are raising your hand to push, pause and focus on developing yourself and your toolkit. Hold on to what you uncover. As uncomfortable as it may be, bringing that self awareness to campus is going to really direct your intentions. The types of clubs you involve yourself in, where you spend your time in and outside of the classroom.
It's often students that kind of pack that away, come to campus and don't get really caught up in doing everything, lose sight of what their priorities were. Priorities change. Absolutely. We never expect that you're going to do exactly what you told us you were going to do when you came to campus. There's so much that happens around you, but finding a way to hold on to some of those priorities, stay curious and really settle into being uncomfortable, that is going to lead to you being a better leader, a better teammate, a better peer, both as a student but out back in the workforce.
[00:14:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Now you're kind of underlining something that we see over and over again in the Real Humans kind of series that we do on Cleared Network. We talk to students, we talk to alumni, and they often say it's like sort of that threading of the needle where you need to know going in what you really want to accomplish.
But you got to leave yourself open to challenges and to try you Know, dip your toe, experiment in new things because you might be whisked off in another direction and you need to be open to that. But it's that balance sort of walking that, you know, that tightrope. So I have to ask you as well, when alumni come back to campus, what's something that they often would say that they didn't fully appreciate when they were students? And I'm going to have to make a rule here. You can't talk about this amazing new building that you guys have just opened because I'm sure that every alum who comes back now is like, oh, I wish this were here, you know, because it's this like really cool state of the art facility.
[00:15:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:47] Speaker A: And you, you can talk a little bit about that too, hopefully at some point in this interview. But yeah. What are, what are they saying? What do they miss? Or what did they kind of not fully appreciate when they were students?
[00:15:55] Speaker B: Yeah. And they do ask about the building. They want to come back and visit. We have a new cafe. Graham. It's really amazing. They, I know it's cliche, but they didn't 100% appreciate the transformation. Right. We tell them everyone reminds them that they're going to have a transformational experience on their own schedule or their own timeline. But they often hear from friends and family and past co workers that there's a new sense of confidence that they didn't have before.
And they, upon some more self reflection, often link that to a new vocabulary, a new way of problem solving or a new way of seeing problems that they may not have ever uncovered before or even wanted to tackle before. I hear a lot too as our alumni become team managers or managers of managers. So now they're managing teams and other folks that every class they took was important, not just the technical courses. And this is something I've heard for the entire 15 years of my career working with MBAs, from executive MBAs to two year MBAs, that they really do appreciate the leadership focused courses and preparing them for the different stages of what type of leader they're going to be becoming and the types of people managing decisions they're going to have to make.
[00:17:25] Speaker A: Now maybe we can go off on a small kind of tangent here because now you're reminding me that if memory serves, one thing that's interesting about Kenan Flagler is that I feel like these concentrations that are offered in the program are somewhat oriented towards careers. Like in a very specific, like I believe there's like a consulting track or, and correct me if I'm Wrong. But. And so I think it's really unique because most schools, oh, if you want to do consulting, you might major in something like strategy or management or something. But you guys seem to have these sort of concentrations that are very directly tied to what folks are going to do right after school. Do you want to just talk a little bit about that or are people saying to you when they come back that that was one of the, you know, key advantages they getting into the workforce?
[00:18:07] Speaker B: It is. And you're correct that our concentrations are deliberately career focused.
And actually the alumni voice in that, also accompanied by our partners in industry, led to some enhancements to our core curriculum and our first year curriculum that launched this past August with the class of 2028. And we've rolled out some new career pathways which mirror in some ways our concentrations. But the pathways are a succinct set of electives, four or five electives in your first year that you'll start taking as early as October.
[00:18:45] Speaker A: Oh, wow.
[00:18:45] Speaker B: There are some career paths in recruiting for your internship that start right away and have highly technical recruiting experiences. Investment banking, for one, Consulting for one. Right. Really getting people comfortable with that. Case management, case prep experience, but not starting them out too early.
Those will crisscross over the first year and then everyone will be able to really double down and focus on what it is they want to pursue for their internship. And again, that voice came from our alumni. It wasn't.
We were waiting too long into the spring semester of year one or into second year in order for students to really feel like they were ahead of the game in that interview process.
What's great about second year is you can come back now and say, hey, I had an awesome summer being a generalist in a consulting firm, and I know my path around that firm in the future is going to be in energy and real estate. So let me double down on that through a concentration this spring and I'll really be prepared for it not only when I graduate, but the next role that I'm going to pursue in two, three, four, five years.
[00:19:57] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, thanks for elaborating on that. I know, you know, that was a little bit of a tangent, but I just was curious to hear more about that because I. I know employers have often said really good things about Kenan Flagler grads because of the way that the. What they're studying maps right into the workforce. So just wanted to make sure we covered that. Give me a stereotype about UNC or, you know, Kenan Flagler, specifically the. That you'd Love to debunk.
[00:20:22] Speaker B: Yeah. I think that our biggest stereotype that we like to debunk is also probably our biggest asset, and that is that we're a very regional school, that most students come from North Carolina and that they stay in North Carolina, that that's where companies are coming to recruit and encourage you to come into their offices locally. And that's true. And I'm biased and this is a great place to live, and so I understand why people want to stay.
But we do have students every year from 25, 30 different countries from all corners of the U.S. this year we have two students from Hawaii.
[00:20:54] Speaker A: Oh, wow.
[00:20:54] Speaker B: And they're headed back all over the country and all over the world, not only for internships, but for their post graduation endeavors. Now, like I said, there's something about North Carolina and the Southeast that brings people back here. It, there's a lot happening here. It is a very affordable place to, to spend part of your life. And so people do find their way back here down the road, but we find that they spread their wings, they head out and they really land everywhere.
[00:21:23] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's, I mean, it's a pretty dynamic region too. Even, you know. Yeah. Obviously grads go everywhere and UNC is kind of a really big brand name in terms of the university and. But I, Yeah, I personally, as someone who's never lived down there, have been surprised when I visited by the kind of dynamism and just, you know, the research triangle and even silly things like the number of international flights that come in to rally is really, was kind of surprising to me. And now I sound like a big city person or something. But it just, you know, it really is a hub. So I could see why people want to stay in the area.
[00:21:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:57] Speaker A: Tell me a little bit. That's a really good kind of segue into this next question, which is about the role that Chapel Hill, or let's say the broader kind of rally Durham, Chapel Hill region or community plays in the student experience at Kenan Flagler.
[00:22:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, Chapel Hill really does give you the truly quintessential college town experience. I didn't believe it until I saw it, but even our fire trucks are Carolina blue. And it's not one, it's not a novelty. All the fire trucks are Carolina blue. And so you have this great university town where everything really is built around supporting that experience and everything happening on campus. But like you said, 20 minutes down the road you have Raleigh Durham Airport. We have, every year, it seems like more and more direct international flights, whether you're headed to Europe or to Latin America. And we hope to see more coming soon. But we make up one point and what we call the research triangle or rtp, you sometimes see it, and that is Raleigh, Durham and Chapel Hill with three major research institutions. At each one of those corners there are more than 7,000, I think is the number now, companies across industries, whether it's deep focus on healthcare, life sciences, but also you need finance institutions, energy, real estate, advanced manufacturing in order for those companies to thrive. And a booming entrepreneurial ecosystem within that triangle, that ecosystem shows up in the classroom. We have our centers of excellence, whether it's focus on the center of business for health or real estate or energy or sustainability or investment management, that are seated in that beautiful brand new building, Bell hall at the business school, but are crossing all the dots between research and policy and private business, with the faculty and the students a part of that conversation every day.
Then we add Charlotte, North Carolina, about a two hour train ride or drive just south of Chapel Hill. And that is the second largest financial center or hub in the us just second to New York City. And so having all those major financial institutions in our backyard makes coming to campus on a regular basis really accessible. And also our students are down on our new Charlotte campus, engaging with our incredible alumni down there, doing company visits and also engaging in experiential learning. Just down in Charlotte alone.
[00:24:31] Speaker A: Yeah, it is a beautiful area. And I have to agree. I mean, you know, Chapel Hill is like sort of quintessential college town. You know, just a great kind of exactly what you expect when you think of like a big, you know, kind of college town. The other thing I have to mention, and I'm sure you'll maybe back me up a little bit on this, and that's. I feel like the barbecue game is really great, as is the live music scene. You know, I just think there's so there's a lot of like, you know, good food culture, et cetera in the region.
[00:24:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I would back you up on that for sure. And there's a constant debate about the multiple variations of Carolina barbecue. So something fun to get to know. But we say often you could be in the mountains in two hours, you could be at the beach in two hours. It's a very, it's a, it's a place where people really live their lives outdoors. And as a former Bostonian, the weather absolutely allows for, for that, which I love.
[00:25:22] Speaker A: Yeah, makes sense. So those are all the main questions that I had for you, but I wonder if you'll stick around. As you probably know, if you've been listening to some of the other episodes, we have these lightning round questions. Just sort of rapid fire stuff. But it'll be a nice way for our listeners to get to know you. Yeah, so let's dive into that. So the first one is coffee or tea?
[00:25:41] Speaker B: Coffee always.
[00:25:42] Speaker A: Okay.
Beach or mountains? You just mentioned you're two hours in either direction. So which is it?
[00:25:49] Speaker B: I debate this one. I would say the beach, but I was raised in Seattle, so the mountains are always something I think about. But the beach.
[00:25:56] Speaker A: Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Morning person or night owl?
[00:26:00] Speaker B: If I have to choose, I'd say night owl. But I am a team. Midday. I like that. 10 to 3 block.
[00:26:05] Speaker A: Okay, perfect. What about a pet peeve that you have?
[00:26:09] Speaker B: This one's personal for me. I'm not related to business school at all or professional work, but when individuals park in the disabled parking spots without authorization.
[00:26:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. Yeah, that's terrible. We've had a couple of auto related.
I don't. You haven't. Not all of the ones I've recorded have aired, but there have been a couple of auto related pet peeves. Kind of interesting. What about a comfort food?
[00:26:34] Speaker B: I love tomatoes and it can come in any form. Tomato pie, tomato sandwich, a tomato sauce. I love tomatoes.
[00:26:41] Speaker A: So you're in the zone right now because as we're recording this, it's kind of peak tomato season, I think. Right. It's kind of late summer, so it
[00:26:48] Speaker B: is peak tomato season. Yeah. Tomato sandwich season everywhere.
[00:26:51] Speaker A: There you go. What about a guilty pleasure?
[00:26:54] Speaker B: A Diet Coke from the fountain soda. Oh, wow.
[00:26:58] Speaker A: Okay, got it. What about the best advice you've ever received?
[00:27:01] Speaker B: That your career should be a game of shoots and ladders. You never know where the ladder will take you. One direction it could go laterally. You could take a chute or a slide down in another direction. I learned that very early on and I think my LinkedIn will reflect that.
[00:27:17] Speaker A: You've had a lot of really amazing experiences, but yeah, that's a great, I think a great philosophy to take with it. What about one thing that applicants should stop doing immediately?
[00:27:27] Speaker B: This is a new one for me and I don't know where this stems from, but stop waiting until you're admitted to really start learning about a school or a program. And then maybe not the most comforting, but stop using AI to learn about our schools. We have so many incredible ways to get to for you to get to know us too. And things change all the time. So come and talk to us.
[00:27:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Time and time again, when we talk to current students and ask them what piece of advice do they have for those applying now? Almost always the first thing is talk to people in the program, like, have those conversations. And I think the reason is twofold. Right. It's because they get to know the school and figure out if there's a fit. But then invariably by doing that, your essays or your interview or anything that you do as part of the application process will reflect that research. And so you just become a stronger candidate. Right.
[00:28:17] Speaker B: So, yeah.
[00:28:17] Speaker A: All right, last one. And this is my favorite.
[00:28:20] Speaker B: I love.
[00:28:20] Speaker A: I've been noting these down as I talk to folks. What's the best thing that you've read, watched or listened to recently?
[00:28:27] Speaker B: Well, I joked the other day that I'm not really reading anything, unfortunately, because it's application reading season. So I guess I'm reading. I'm reading about all of our listeners, hopefully.
[00:28:35] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:28:36] Speaker B: But I am really loving the new season of TED Lasso. I think we could all use a little more Coach Ted in our lives.
[00:28:45] Speaker A: All right, that's excellent. Do you know it has not aired yet, but there is another. I will tell you later, but there's another admissions director at a peer school who also loves that show. So I have to collect you guys.
[00:28:55] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I'd love to know who it is.
[00:28:57] Speaker A: Yeah. So that's all I had for you. Katie, thank you so much for joining us. I know, as you said, it's application season. You're probably sitting on piles of. Of applications to read. At least not, not physical piles, but digital piles of applications to read. But this has been so incredibly helpful and I've learned a lot and I'm sure our listeners have, too. So I appreciate you making time.
[00:29:16] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks, Graham. It was a lot of fun.
[00:29:18] Speaker A: All right, that's going to do it for this episode of the show. Thanks for tuning in to the Clear Admit MBA admissions podcast. And please remember to subscribe, rate, and review the show wherever you list.
[00:29:37] Speaker B: Sam.
