Episode Transcript
[00:00:16] Speaker A: Welcome to the Clearadmit MBA Admissions podcast. I'm your host, Graham Richmond, and in this episode of the podcast, we're taking a deep dive into the subject of leadership and specifically how one business school is breaking new ground, training the next generation of leaders. I'm also hopeful that today's discussion will shed some light on the leadership curriculum in an MBA program, since I feel as though most people have a great idea of what an accounting or a marketing class looks like. But leadership coursework is less of a known quantity to take us on this journey, we have two very special guests on the show. Let me give a brief bio on each of them before we bring them onto the airwaves here. So first up we have Professor Evelyn Williams. Professor Williams is the founding academic director of the Master of Science and Management program at Georgetown McDonough's School of Business, where she also teaches courses in leadership, innovation, and design thinking. She's held faculty positions in the past and taught leadership at Wake Forest, Stanford Graduate School of Business, and the University of Chicago Booth. She's also actively consulting with major companies across the globe, and Professor Williams holds a BA from the University of California at Los Angeles and an MA in education from the University of Chicago. Welcome, Evelyn.
[00:01:29] Speaker B: It's great to be here with you. Graham thanks.
[00:01:31] Speaker A: No, it's a pleasure. We're also going to hear from a former student of yours, Evelyn Matt Gallo, who is a Georgetown McDonough grad. Matt graduated from the MBA program at Georgetown in 2021, and while at Georgetown, he was co president of the school's consulting club, which is a very large club, if memory serves. Matt now works in consulting at Ey Parthenon in Chicago, where he was recently promoted to a director role in the strategy group. Before business school, Matt was a founding member of an advertising agency in the Chicago area, and Matt holds a BA in economics and philosophy from the College of the Holy Cross and his MBA from Georgetown McDonough, as we mentioned earlier. Welcome, Matt.
[00:02:13] Speaker C: It's good to be here.
[00:02:14] Speaker A: Graham yeah, no, it's great to have you. I love this idea that we have both professor and student. You can kind of keep each other honest as to what the coursework was like. So let's dive into some of the questions I have because I really want to learn more about. I mean, I was reading about this on Georgetown's website, and it's fascinating as to how the school kind of orchestrates the sort of leadership education. So, Evelyn, I do want to start with you. Can you just tell me a little bit about this leadership communications course that is part of the curriculum at McDonough.
[00:02:43] Speaker B: I think the way to think about it is in this sea of sameness of business schools. This course really helps students answer the fundamental question, why would anybody want to be led specifically by you? We work on leadership concepts and skills that are really differentiators of exceptional communicators. Their ability to influence outcomes or motivate others and build and maintain relationships. So we focus on topics like assertiveness and influence conflict management. And it runs over a six week period. It's a required course in the first year of our MBA.
[00:03:18] Speaker A: Okay.
So it's required. It's something they do pretty early on in the curriculum, it sounds like. And I guess. How do you. I mean, I just. You. I think you've underlined this a little bit. But, like, what are some of the goals? I mean, you mentioned assertiveness. I mean, you mentioned some of these characteristics. But is there some kind of, like, when you bring a student into this class, do you have sort of a goal in mind for what they're going to be able to do afterwards?
[00:03:44] Speaker B: We do. I think that we base a lot of it in research based leadership skills and what we know are important leadership abilities for good leaders to have. And then it's a matter of helping them calibrate and analyze situations, figure out what are the important goals, what's the task they need to accomplish, what's the process that would be best to use in that context, and then how to deal with the crazy, wonderful humans that are a part of every endeavor.
Rather than run cases and class discussions where students can huddle in the safety blanket of their intellectual analysis skills, we run experiential sessions in which students have to grapple with the emotional, unpredictable humans that you find in tough business simulations. And we take those simulations from real leadership challenges so they aren't given a lot of facts up front in this situation, just like in real life, they aren't given this neat, tidy little case that they can analyze intellectually.
So it's very experiential and hands on.
[00:04:53] Speaker A: Got it. All right. So, Matt, I want to turn to you. I have to ask, because when I was in business school, there were people in my class, and I'm not going to say what domain they were from in terms of what career they had, but there were some people who kind of poo pooed the leadership stuff. They were kind of like, oh, I'm here to take this or that. But what did you think, like, going into this type of class? What was your initial impression before you'd taken it. And then what about after you were done?
[00:05:21] Speaker C: Yeah, it's interesting, Graham, you mentioned at the beginning, I think classes like marketing and finance and accounting, everyone knows you either have a background in that or you don't. And so people understand, they come in with different levels of experience.
Leadership and communication, I think, is something that everyone comes in thinking, oh, I'm a leader, and I communicate. By definition, I'm here. Right.
And so it's interesting to see you come into that course with sort of an expectation of, I'm going to succeed at this. And I'll always remember sort of the first class and the first case you do. Evelyn gives a little bit of a heads up that it might not go as you originally planned. I think part of that is the built in sort of hubris or just idea that all these people are going to be able to seamlessly come together and navigate these situations. And so what ultimately ends up happening is, I think, that those sort of leadership and communication skills are ultimately kind of broken down to those first principles through the first and second case, and then ultimately built back up together within your team. And so I think coming out of that experience, there's this sense of sort of reimagining what it means and sort of redefining what leadership and communication is and sort of what your role and what your strong voice is in sort of that setting.
[00:06:39] Speaker A: Got it. Very helpful. Yeah, I think you put it so well when you're talking about the fact that people don't necessarily know what to expect, but most people think, yeah, I'm here at a top MBA program, so I must be a great leader.
But you actually teed this up perfectly. Because I wanted to ask Evelyn now about this. I guess it's called the executive challenge, right. This is like the culmination of the leadership communications class. And I think Matt was kind of hinting at this, but I want to know, what is this, Evelyn, and who takes part? Is this for all the students in the class? And it sounds like there are other people involved, too.
[00:07:13] Speaker B: Yes, it is the final exam, so everyone takes.
And I think the best way to think about it is imagine you're a senior exec and you look at your calendar for the day, and it's filled with this gauntlet of meetings, one challenge after the other. And more than just getting your tasks done as an experienced leader, you know that each one of those meetings needs a different process to be effective that's dictated by the task. And most importantly, those wonderful, gloriously unpredictable humans and so that's really what the executive challenge is, in a nutshell, a crazy, challenging day for our MBA students that mirrors real life, and we want them to design their actions, given all these contextual elements, be able to act in the moment productively and then reflect on what they're learning and finally continue to experiment. And in short, that's one of the models we use, is dare to be different. Really think about your actions and reflect on them throughout the course of the day. That's really modeled in the executive challenge. So they learn as they go through the experience.
[00:08:17] Speaker A: My understanding is you have, I guess we could call them actors who take part in this. I think they're mostly alums. Right. But you actually bring in, I mean, to create this gauntlet of a day and meetings. The students sit down with people who are already out in the workforce, who've graduated from McDonough.
[00:08:33] Speaker B: Right.
[00:08:33] Speaker A: Is that how it's done?
[00:08:34] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. One of the beautiful things about running simulations that mirror reality is senior alums have a lot of lived experience that allows them to bring a truly realistic tone to the challenge. And we do have a written judge version of cases, et cetera. But we don't tell them exactly what to say. They really can just put themselves in the moment.
It really is creating a realistic, say, boardroom experience.
And if we hear something that makes my teaching heart sing, it's that, oh, my gosh, this felt real, and that's what we're trying to give them.
[00:09:16] Speaker A: Okay, so, Matt, I have two questions for you. So, I know you were part of a class. Know, obviously had to deal with COVID So your version of the executive challenge may have been a little different, but I also know that you've been participating in this as a grad. Right. So you've seen it from both sides. But I wondered if you could. Let's start with the student experience. I want to know, what was it like from your side? And also, do people dress up for that? Is this like you're meeting? I mean, obviously, in your case, if it was Covid, this might have been know zoomed or whatever, but still, like, people must take a certain degree of formality with this. So, yeah. Matt, let us give us some insights into what this was like for you as a student.
[00:09:53] Speaker C: Evelyn does a great job throughout the course of the class, sort of building up this executive challenge, that there's this point on the horizon that you're working towards, and that all of the skills and the different sort of lessons that are learned week to week will ultimately be put to this test.
I don't think business has sort of like this competition element to it, usually.
But it really is like this exhibition of all of the potential skills that you might use or will ultimately use in a business setting. And so there's this sense I'll never forget kind of the day of there's this energy to it that's sort of indescribable, where there's a combination of confidence. And I've been working towards this, but ultimately, no one really knows what the cases are or what the settings are going to mean. It couldn't be a better sort of replication of what it's like to truly go into a meeting or have a day like Evelyn is describing, where anything can happen and how your ability to adapt and your ability to lead through communication is really put to the test.
[00:10:56] Speaker A: So now I have to ask. So you went through this process of taking this executive challenge, and now in your role at Ey Parthenon, you must have similar days where you've got this gauntlet of meetings, know probably different challenges with very different types of human beings, as Evelyn's been pointing out. Kind of that. Is this something you look back on when you kind of have those types of days?
[00:11:21] Speaker C: Absolutely. I think one of the elements of the course that I think is really important is this sort of circular feedback loop that you are provided throughout the simulations that you do. And then ultimately, in the challenge where you're given feedback, and there's people whose job is to not actually be an active participant in the course, but to just sort of facilitate and witness what is going on. And so you're kind of given that feedback as you go throughout. And that's not something you get totally in a business environment, but it's a voice in your head, or it's sort of like it's guidance that you've received that every day as I'm sitting and facilitating meetings, or whether I'm leading or participating, I start to hear, and I remember those voices of remember to do this or in this situation, people tend to act like this, so I should defer to this way. So it's really a real foundation for what ultimately becomes sort of a know, gloves are off, business environment situation.
[00:12:21] Speaker A: Got it. Okay, so, Evelyn, this must make you happy to hear that the sort of voices are still in Matt's head when he's in these situations. From your delusional voices. Yeah, that's a question you. So Matt's taken part in this since he graduated, as well as kind of an actor or an alum, but I wanted to know, how do you train, how do you recruit and train alumni to take part in the executive challenge and to kind of put the students through the wringer a little bit? Yeah. How does that process work?
[00:12:53] Speaker B: It really is very easy to recruit senior alumni to do this. If you explain what the day is, there's almost a little imp inside that says, oh, I get to come and almost be on the other side of some of the horrific experiences I've had through a month. And now it's not that bad, but it isn't that hard to recruit them. And I think the day is designed for a busy senior leader who doesn't have a lot of extra time, but really wants to mentor and coach students, to swoop in and have a great day with them and then swoop out. And I do think that's where the design thinking mindset comes in of how do we create an experience that's really wonderful for alums?
They do have to prep for a few hours. They have to read a business simulation case. But unlike other things where it's scripted, there's no script. There is a perspective that they have to get through and there are arguments that they need to make, but how they make them is really based on their personality.
We're really trying to simulate real life and they bring that realistic perspective. And so alumni, I think, tell us that what they have a blast doing is working with students and in some ways like master craftspeople, really sharing that craft of figuring out context and what they've learned through the years. And so it provides a vehicle for them to share that with the apprentice and really explain things in a positive way. And so it's energizing for them to be able to do that. And at the same time, it's not uncommon for alumni to share that. They've sharpened their own toolkit throughout the day as they listen to their peers explaining and giving feedback. So as they're sharing the nuances of how to do the day in, day out leading of people, they learn something too.
It's a really successful day. When I hear from not just students, but alumni say, I was surprised at how much I learned today too.
[00:15:02] Speaker A: Interesting. So, Matt, I want to put you back on the spot a little bit. I know you've done this as an alum. I also imagine it was different know, because now we're back in person and yours was maybe a bit different. But can you tell me about what was your day like when you came as an alum and any details you want to share even about the case or whatever it is that stood out to you as you kind of went through this day to help current students at McDonough.
[00:15:27] Speaker C: It's great. I remember the energy in Hariri when you walk in. There's this tenseness to the students and this looseness to the facilitators that creates this just like great tension in the building.
But I can't say enough. It's become this sort of, as everyone's talking about the fact that people are willing to sort of come back and give their time, it's this self propelling mechanism that Evelyn's created where there's alumni who have had this experience and understand how foundational it was to their MBA experience, and then wanting to sort of give that back to the students and wanting to put them through the wringer and give them an experience that sort of will shape them, that's something that they will remember. And it's really a great embodiment, I think, of the broader MSB community of this sort of willingness to sort of empty yourself out, come back and give, knowing that ultimately you'll be filled back up by your peers and the other alumni from MSB who sort of share and help shape your experience.
[00:16:27] Speaker A: Mean, if you'll kind of humor me of, is there any moment that you can remember from one of the recent times that you participated in have. I'm just picturing some of the roles must be really fun. Like if you're given a certain role and you're supposed to raise this argument, and, I mean, I would assume you can have some fun with that. Is there anything that you can remember?
[00:16:47] Speaker C: Yes. I'll try not to share too much about the details of the case because.
[00:16:51] Speaker A: We don't want Evelyn to have to redo it.
[00:16:54] Speaker C: But there's a particular case that I would say most alumni say is the most fun to give because there's this wrinkle to it where ultimately there's like this revolt that's almost about to take place, and the students who are preparing for it are not prepared. And I think you go in thinking, oh, yeah, it's going to be tough. They're going to push around but not gang together and revolt against. And so as giving that case, it's amazing to see how different students react to that. Sort of like the looks on their faces, the way that they realize like, oh, this is like game on. And it brings a crazy energy and a crazy experience. It's fun to witness sort of the different reactions to that.
[00:17:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:32] Speaker A: I mean, I will say this really does sound exciting to me. I studied leadership in business school, too, but it wasn't done in this way. And this just seems like such a great way to get to mix, stir the pot, mix together different personalities in a kind of live setting. And I love the way you describe it, Matt, where the alums that are know, it's kind of fun for them. Right. But then the students are, there's this sort know, kind of nervous energy probably and. Yeah, I can imagine that makes for a good combination. I did want to talk a little bit more about my understanding, Evelyn, is that there are second year students who provide coaching to first years during the class. Right. So there's something called the leadership fellows program and I wanted to know how does that work in the context of the course and is it a popular thing to do? Like are second year students wanting to do this? Are they more kind of focused on recruiting or something or.
[00:18:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:26] Speaker A: How does it all work?
[00:18:27] Speaker B: So the leadership fellows are chosen every year through this highly competitive process once they've completed the first year leadership communications class. And I like to think we take the best of the best in each class and turn them around and give them this opportunity to mentor and coach the next generation of leaders. And so once selected, these leadership fellows go through two more courses, coaching high performance teams in individuals course and then an advanced coaching course. So they're getting more training before they then come back into the classroom to facilitate the first year experience. So they get to hone a lot of the skills that we talk about in leadership communications and take it to another level. So they're going to be leaders of leaders in many ways. And so that opportunity to do that in a relatively risk free environment is a pretty special experience. And so it's definitely a competitive process to get into it. And I do think that it also speaks to the community at McDonough. I think that Matt alluded to this in our alumni community, but I do think that service and working for the common good is a big part of our dna. And so a lot of people look at it as a service because it is, they're not paid for it. It's really a leadership learning. Jump into the pool and get to exercise and help people get in touch with their own leadership abilities. So I think that's what's pretty special about this program is that there aren't a lot of carrots in the terms of compensation or anything like that, but it's a highly competitive process. So it's nice to see that. Yeah.
[00:20:14] Speaker A: And actually one of your colleagues, Shelly Heinrich, who's the dean of admissions, I guess, at Georgetown, McDonough, she's been on the show before, and she has talked about that, the jesuit roots of Georgetown and how that does sort of bring about this dedication to service and things like that. So, Evelyn, I have a good understanding about these second year students who, they take some additional coursework and then they get to participate in mentoring the first years. But I did want to ask Matt, just down to brass, what, what was their involvement as you took the course in the first year? Did you have someone assigned to you that was a second year student? And. Yeah, just take us through a little bit of that.
[00:20:52] Speaker C: You do? Yeah. So the leadership fellows, everyone sort of teaches that the broader class and then your breakout groups where you do these simulations are led by a leadership fellow, a second year, who's assigned a group of five or six students, first year students, and they're ultimately responsible for facilitating these discussions, for providing that sort of direct feedback and sort of orchestrating that mini pod within the broader class. And I had the opportunity as a second year to be part of this sort of top gun class of leaders that Evelyn mentioned. And it really is a really great opportunity to sort of be able to be in that sort of feedback leader position with students that sort of are not too different or not too much greener than you were just a year ago.
[00:21:37] Speaker A: Yeah. And I guess I would assume that also has helped you as you kind of move out into the workforce because you have this chance. I think, Evelyn, you were saying earlier this kind of low risk sort of leadership opportunity to give feedback to the first years. I guess one of the things I just want to make sure I understand is, Evelyn, so you mentioned people apply for this. Is this like something that happens during the first year when they've completed the main course, they then can apply so that, you know, going into the second year, who's part of the top gun.
[00:22:05] Speaker B: Leadership school here, it actually happens at the very beginning of their second year. So we certainly do soft recruiting during the course, but the hardcore application, et cetera, happens at the very, very beginning of their second year so that we have enough time to get in the additional coursework that they need before we start teaching. So it's a pretty fast, quick turnaround. I think that to build on some of the things that Matt was saying, I do think that being a leadership fellow allows you to have the experience of really figuring out how to take any reasonable group of individuals and help them become a high performance team. And so they really help provide. I think fellows help provide the psychologically safe learning environment that is inclusive and welcoming to all kinds of students.
And as a result, they can really help shape the first year experience in the first year class in meaningful ways. And so we're very careful about who gets to be in the top gun class. And to use math analogy, but I think that it's an important role, not just in the first year course, but in the first year's experience as an MBA. And so they play a pretty darn important role.
[00:23:29] Speaker A: Yeah, that is an excellent point. I think that the ability to have that connection with second year students when you're a first year, not just in this context where you're getting leadership feedback, but also just to ask questions about recruiting or anything else that's happening in someone's life in the second year and how they went through the first year is really invaluable. Evelyn, not to put you on the spot, but I'm just curious how many people end up being in the leadership fellows program in a given year, do you know?
[00:23:56] Speaker B: So it varies a little bit from year to year, anywhere from 45 ish to 50. And that's based on the first year class.
We tend to add a few extra some years when the bounty is we just can't say no to some people. And at the same time it's roughly around 45 50. We want to make sure that we have a good ratio of leadership fellows to students. So we have a one to six, which is pretty small. And I've taught it in a larger group setting, one to eight, and you just don't get as much practice. And so I think at Georgetown we really wanted to make sure that we maximize that experience to its fullest. So we have very small groups.
[00:24:51] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. And I guess one of the things I probably should ask you is, I mean, you've been on the faculty at a couple of other MBA programs that are larger programs. And I would think that the kind of close knit community at McDonough makes this just sort of a really perfect environment to pull something like this off, right?
[00:25:08] Speaker B: I think it does. And I think we're really looking at throwing students into business simulations where they have to learn what principal leadership means to them and how do they want to show up and how do they want to behave in lots of different situations. And unless you practice that, so we'll do things like a layoff conversation. How are you going to have a negotiation with people that are at your level and figure out who might be laid off? I would rather that happen in business school for the first time, where it's not real, than to have to face that for the first time out in the real world and have to really deal with the difficult decisions that often are forced upon senior leaders. And so we want to have those kinds of difficult conversations in a setting where we can think about, well, okay, how do you want to behave? How are you going to manage this conversation in a way that feels fair, but also so you can live with yourself and that you're thinking about the bigger picture and at the same time thinking about the humans that are going to be impacted by these decisions. I do think that those are the kinds of discussions and simulations that we're trying to do so that it's not. While we can't replicate every difficult challenge that a leader is going to face, we want to put them through simulations that give them an opportunity to really carve out what's important to them and how they want to show up in these kinds of situations.
[00:26:44] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:26:44] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Matt, I want to turn to you with a final question for you. And you're now in the workforce, recently promoted, and you've presumably seen your fair share of real life leadership challenges and different opportunities. And I guess I'm just kind of wondering how have courses like leadership communications, but also the executive challenge specifically, and your role as a fellow, how has that kind of played or shaped your kind of journey in the workforce after McDonough?
[00:27:15] Speaker C: It's a great question. And I talked about feedback before, and in this environment, the work environment we're in now, there's just so many opportunities and so many times in your day to day work life that whether informal or formal, you're giving or receiving feedback. I look at my calendar today. I have four check ins with people to provide feedback. And part of this executive challenge and this leadership communications process is, I mentioned this kind of feedback loop of you're giving feedback, but then in turn, you're asking that person, how was that? How was my feedback? How did that feel? Did it feel fair? Did it feel actionable? And that opportunity to sort of get the sense of what it's like to get feedback from yourself is super unique and rare. And as I mentioned, I'm using that every day. So it really is something that, it's a foundation that's been built on that I think has been so important to sort of my career so far. And I certainly continue to hone the skills that I sort of started with in Evelyn's class.
[00:28:16] Speaker A: Yeah, that's great. To hear Evelyn, I would be remiss. So, as I said to you before we came on air, folks tuning into this show are thinking about business school. And as you probably are aware, business schools ask almost always about candidates leadership experience. And the constant refrain that we hear from people who listen to the show or who are on clearadmit.com asking us questions is, oh, I don't have any formal leadership experience. I'm pretty junior in my company, and schools want me to talk about leadership. So do you have any advice? Like, if you were putting yourself in the shoes of a young professional who's applying to business school and has asked that question about leadership, are there any ways that someone could demonstrate leadership without headcount, without being able to say, oh, I've got ten people reporting to me or something, so I'm putting you on the spot here, but I would just love to hear your take, given your expertise in this domain.
[00:29:07] Speaker B: I think that in some ways, stepping into an arena, whether it's a formalized setting where you have people that report to you or you show the courage to raise your hand and share a diverse perspective that maybe isn't popular, but you really feel is important to be shared in that arena.
I think that that is, when we talk about principled leadership, it's not always the person that's in the front of the bus saying, this is what we need to do. Sometimes it's the person in the middle of the bus or the back of the bus that's saying, hey, I think we made a wrong turn here. And this is why I think that people can really think about their day to day behavior. And where were some acts of courage? Where were some moments when you really had to step out and say something that got the bus going in a different direction that was better for everybody who was on the bus.
That isn't really just about business, that's about life. And so I think we're really looking for people who are reflective and thoughtful about the signals they're sending and the impact they're having on other human beings.
My book is really what leadership is about.
[00:30:26] Speaker A: Well said.
[00:30:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:27] Speaker A: And I think anyone applying to business school can think to those moments when they've been courageous or tried to manage up or from within all these terms we hear. So that's great advice. I do want to thank both of you for making the time. I know it's not always easy to get together both a professor and a student or former student. So this is just such a great combination to hear both of your perspectives on what, to me, just seems like such a unique offering at Georgetown McDonough when it comes to leadership training. So thank you so much, Evelyn, for your time on this. Matt, as well. Just really appreciate it.
[00:30:59] Speaker B: Thank you. It was a pleasure being here.
[00:31:01] Speaker C: It's great. Thanks for having us, Grant.
[00:31:03] Speaker A: All right, so stay tuned, everyone. We've got more episodes coming up of the Clearadmit MBA admissions podcast, and we will see you next time.
