Episode Transcript
[00:00:16] Speaker A: Welcome to the Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast. I'm Graham Richmond and this special episode of the show takes us to Boston where Clear Admit organized an MBA fair with some of the leading schools in the, in the world.
While we were at the fair, we did a number of panels with admissions directors and we're going to share that audio with you. This particular episode focuses on a panel we did that was called Admissions Tips. One what you've done, tests, work and activities.
So essentially, you know, there are a number of components that go into a successful MBA application and this panel focused on three of them. Right. So what is the role of standardized testing and past academic performance?
How much work experience is needed and what aspects are important when a committee's looking at your work experience? And finally, why do admissions teams look at hobbies, volunteer work, and collegiate involvement? So we tackled all of that. It was really a great, great panel and we had admissions directors from Dartmouth, Tuck, Georgia Tech, Scheller, Columbia Business School, and Cornell Johnson Tech mba. So it should be a great listen. Stay tuned. It's live audio, so forgive any kind of crowd noise, but it's a lot of fun. Tune in and we'll see you next time.
Welcome everyone to the second panel. As those of you who were here for the first. These are really speedy, but it's again by design so you have time to go and chat with everybody.
Let me introduce our panelists. This is, I love this panel because this is an admissions tips panel. So we're getting into like the nitty gritty so that you can walk out of here with advice and information that'll help make your applications more successful when you apply to business school.
Let me just introduce our panelists. We have Amy Mitson from Tuck at Dartmouth. Welcome, Amy.
We have Emily Sharkey from Georgia Tech, Kate Murphy from Columbia Business School, and Joseph Korvik. I just want to make sure I always, I'm worried about mispronouncing your last name. And Joseph works at Cornell, but at Cornell Tech in Manhattan where they have a one year specialized tech MBA program.
So we're going to get right into it because we just, you know, we're on the clock. Right. So, Amy, most MBA programs accept the GMAT and the gre.
Some even allow for waivers. But let's start with these tests. Like, what are these exams for? Like, what are they evaluating?
[00:02:36] Speaker B: So gmat, GRE is a another, you know, one of many layers of evaluation and ways that you can show the committee areas of strength and experience.
So GMAT or gre, you may be Familiar. There's quantitative assessment part verbal assessment, part some critical thinking data assessment. The two tests differ a little bit.
But those tests are not just to test you but also are an indicator of some of the, you know, the performance, future performance of you in a heavy quant core curriculum typically or that first year quantitative coursework. So that will provide the committee with some indication of your level of quantitative strength and verbal capabilities. It's not everything, right. You've seen some of the applications and the questions that we ask. And so we're, we're going many levels deep. It's not just a test that we're using, but the test does just that kind of provide us some awareness of future performance in the first year curriculum. It can also be a competitive measure.
You know, in a competitive application process, it can be a way for you to shine. That may be where you shine in a process where you're showing a strength there and the committee sees that and is able to, you know, help, help you stand out. Maybe that's a spot where you stand out in the application process.
[00:04:13] Speaker A: Got it. I would add also that I think it's kind of a leveling device. Right. So if you imagine MBA programs getting applications from people all over the world who studied at all types of different institutions, sometimes having a test score is like a way to compare that candidate from Brazil with a candidate from France or America and have this sort of level set.
Emily, can you talk a little bit about. There are other tests that some schools allow one to take besides the GRE and the gmat. I think it's on automatically. So yeah, just take us through. And also, can you not take a test?
[00:04:46] Speaker C: Yes.
So I think I'll start with that second part first. Yes, there are programs that are test optional. Georgia Tech happens to be test optional. I would say do your research.
It will be pretty clear on schools websites whether they're test optional or not.
And I think as part of a test optional process, schools will give you criteria of what makes you a strong candidate to be test optional.
As part of our process, for example, if you have taken the LSAT or the mcat, you know, GMAC has something called the executive assessment. These are all other exams that not necessarily we're reporting on, but to Amy's point, it gives us an indicator of kind of your like, will you be able to be academically successful in the program.
So those are other things that if you've taken and a school habits to be test optional. Like you can submit those as an example of that.
And then as Far as test optional, I think again, like, look at the website. No one's trying to hide what we're looking for.
And I think again, if you're not taking a test, it's, can you show us that you can keep up quantitatively? In the first year of the program, was your undergrad institution rigorous? Was your undergrad major rigorous?
In your professional experience, have you been exposed kind of to more quantitative heavy coursework?
So I think that's. Those are some things that we're looking for.
[00:06:11] Speaker A: Yeah. And you're making a good point about the first year curriculum in an MBA program is pretty challenging from a quantitative standpoint when you're going to take economics and finance and accounting and all these numbers courses. And so again, yeah, taking these tests or having evidence on your transcripts, which we're going to talk to Kate about next, is a good way to show readiness, academic readiness. So, Kate, I said earlier that people apply to business school from all over the world. You're reading applications.
How do you use the grades and the transcripts? So people are sending you their transcripts from undergrad. How does the committee look at that?
[00:06:43] Speaker D: Yeah. And I think, like you said, Amy, too, the academic piece is just one part of the application. And what we're looking to glean, like you said, is whether we're going to be setting you up for success in the classroom. So, so while we don't require you to have a quantitative heavy background or a particular major, we are looking to see that you have been successful or demonstrated academic capacity during undergrad, because typically that would tell us that you will also be successful in a graduate program.
But again, it's only one piece.
And actually your GPA is the only part of the holistic business school application that you can't change and you can't go back and adjust. So if you have excelled, that can be a really great way for the committee to feel confident that you're going to be successful in the business school classroom. If not, there's really no use fretting over that. And maybe leaning into something like a test is another way to show that you have the academic capacity to succeed in the core.
So we're looking at that as one piece of a very large package. And if it's something that you did well in, I think it can be a really strong part that we, we place a lot of value on. But if not, it's not the end of the world.
If you have withdrawn from a class or changed majors or taken a leave of absence or have had to Withdraw from and transfer, for example. Just be forthcoming about why. Don't leave us asking questions. Many of us have optional essays or addendums as part of our apps and you can explain why any of those circumstances might have impacted your academic journey and then lean into the things that you can change. So taking the test, taking a different test just to show us that you are going to be prepared because we all want to see you be successful academically at our schools.
[00:08:31] Speaker A: Excellent. And I know we've been talking only about testing and grades and stuff, which makes it seem like that's the only important part and it isn't. I think the best way to think of it is the admissions. You know your application is like a multivariable equation, right. You have the academics and we're going to talk a little about some, some of these other components too. So yeah, it's not, don't put, don't overemphasize one area.
But Joe, I want to ask you about what's the interaction between GPA and test score because you, you know, as part of that academic profile, you're looking at, you know, undergraduate performance and maybe a test score, is there sort of like a way that you look at that? And also are there cutoffs for GPAs? Like if someone has a 2, 5, can they not apply? Like do any schools set cutoffs?
[00:09:11] Speaker E: Okay, so I just want to add a quick thing to Kate about. So our school and some schools do require a WES evaluation of foreign credentials which translates your foreign credentials into the US system of grants, credits and degrees. So in some cases that helps level.
[00:09:27] Speaker A: If you have a transcript from a non US University of a non US Correct.
[00:09:32] Speaker E: In terms, in terms of gpa in terms of cutoffs, I would say no.
But also it depends on the program.
Okay, so our program is very tech oriented. More people get rejected because we require three to seven years of digital based work experience.
So they either don't have, they only have one or two or their work experience revolves around updating website.
So do your research on that. In the other case, folks will look at specific coursework. So our program is very quantitative oriented. Others are not as much so typically and I tell people this look at linear algebra, stats, programming and data structures and algorithms. Okay. When I was going for my mba, I went to Madison, University of Wisconsin Madison. They looked for accounting, micro, macroecon algebra and stats grades in those. So it's not necessarily overall grade point average, but in many cases it's specific coursework in that. Now for folks that might have lower test Scores, we look at the grades and vice versa. If your grades are low and you're a good test taker. But I would say, especially if many of you are working, because I didn't go. You know, if you don't go right away, be prepared for the MBA test. Do not go in cold because you should only take the test once.
You should not take it multiple times.
You should prepare yourself right the first time. And I just did practice tests at night for about two months.
[00:11:10] Speaker A: Yeah. And just to be clear, schools allow you to take it multiple times.
But I mean, you're right in the sense that you might as well prepare and give it your best shot the first time. Like it would be foolish to walk in cold and take the GRE or the gmat. Absolutely. Let's turn away from numbers and towards work experience, which is a big component. So, Amy, can you tell me, like, why do business schools require work experience? Because it seems like almost all business schools require you to have work. So what's the purpose of that and how are you? Yeah, why?
[00:11:38] Speaker B: It's not just because the faculty love that you can then bring that experience into the classroom. Like, you may be the one in your section who has had the most recent experience in healthcare or in finance, and the faculty bring that into the case discussion, the classroom discussion, or there's a collaboration with a speaker. It makes the MBA classroom super, super interesting. That's one great result of everyone in the MBA having some work experience. But I also think it's for you, right? You can tell a very good story and have a great understanding of why mba, if you have done something right, like, think about what you're doing now and then think about, like, what are the skills that I have now? Why, why do I want to do something else? Like, what's the aha moment that you've had? Like, I think you find that why because of the experience that you are having as a professional.
So it's that it's having that understanding of what you've done and then being able to articulate what you want to do next, AKA your goals, which many of us will ask you to talk about. And then also having established a professional network, so you are beginning to strengthen your personal and continuing to strengthen your professional networks. Those are a great complement to the MBA network. So you will have had some practice networking, understanding your industry. That's also something really valuable you bring to your cohort in the mba. Oh, you know, you've worked in finance and so someone wants to hear that experience from you. It Makes the combination of experiences so valuable. So I think the benefit of that full time work experience, you are establishing your network, you are also getting an understanding even more about what you want to do and don't want to do. And that makes the MBA even more valuable for you because you come in with a stronger sense of what you want to do with it. And next.
[00:13:27] Speaker A: So Emily, let's stay on work experience for a second. So again, you're reading files and people come from, as I said before, like any number of jobs, industries, etc. How do you go about assessing someone's professional background? And also, what if you've never heard of my employer? Like I don't work at Amazon or some, you know, fancy named company. How do you. And what if I haven't, like, what if I don't have 10 people reporting to me and don't have that kind of leadership experience, at least not in title? How do you assess?
[00:13:55] Speaker C: I think I want to take a step back and say, when we're looking to build an MBA class, we're looking for people with really diverse perspectives and experiences. And that definitely includes professional work experience. And so we want a classroom full of people who've had very different professional work experiences. You can bring that experience to the classroom and share it with your fellow students.
So there is no, we're certainly not just looking for brand name companies. I think you can help the admission committee if you are working for a smaller company.
You know, make sure your resume is really clear and make sure that you're pretty clear about what you're doing at that company. I think we do look for kind of professional growth, not necessarily within a certain industry or a certain company, but you know, we're looking for professional growth. We're looking for like leadership experience, but maybe even more so like potential for leadership experience so you don't have to have people reporting to you. And you can certainly take on leadership roles where you're not managing other people, even if it's within the team you work on.
[00:15:06] Speaker A: I think so, Yeah. I think you have actually. Yeah. And I, you know, I think one thing that's interesting is just to your point about leadership, you could have a terrible boss that you're actually managing up because the person's not as competent as you might want. And so you're actually guiding them. And so you can show examples in your essays without throwing someone under the bus. But of like how you've managed up, even if you don't have 10 people reporting to you, everyone's nodding when I Mentioned bad bosses. I guess there's something going on there.
[00:15:32] Speaker C: I just wanted to add one more thing about professional work experiences. I think another reason that kind of, I would say, quality MBA programs are looking for that is also, you know, we talked about setting up for academic success, but setting up for, like, career success post MBA is there are a number of companies that, you know, there are a lot of MBA grads every year, and they won't look at people unless they've had three years of work experience. So we want to make sure that you have kind of the universe of opportunities as far as your career path post mba. And so I think that's another reason that, you know, we're looking for work experience as well.
[00:16:06] Speaker A: Excellent. So, Kate, so we've talked about testing grades, work experience. There's another component which is outside activities. So whether that's volunteer work or you're a cyclist or, you know, what do you do in your spare time when you're not at work?
How do you look at that stuff and what role does that play in the business?
[00:16:24] Speaker D: Yeah, definitely.
It's really important to us to get to know what drives you, what you're passionate about, the things that interest you outside of your roles and responsibilities at work.
Part of that is because coming to business school, an integral part of the experience is getting involved outside the classroom and outside of the formal recruiting.
At Columbia, we have over 75 active clubs and organizations that we want you to come and be a part of and join the boards of and take on leadership positions in and drive the conference planning and go out into the West Harlem community and make an impact.
So we're looking for folks that obviously are going to be academically and professionally successful. But beyond that, we want to get to know how you're going to make the people around you better. Are you going to make your cluster mates and your learning team better? Are you going to be that supportive, kind person who, you know, lends your support? If you're the accounting expert and somebody else on the team maybe doesn't have that experience in their back pocket, we're looking for people that are going to really lean in and make the most of the experience. So leveraging clubs, leveraging organizations, bringing some of the fun stuff to your hobbies. Like you said, if you're a cyclist, if you do anything fun, unique. We see a lot of chess players, we see a lot of people that have really unique hobbies that they're going to bring to the school and to their class and maybe bring new clubs to light. So I think it's an essential part of the MBA experience is getting involved outside of the classroom, not only for your own professional development and leadership, but also for the networking aspect.
So generally speaking, if you have been the president of a club or on the board of a club during undergrad or athletics, or if you volunteered for any organizations or if you've been a part of an erg at work that's kind of outside the scope of your but dedicated to a cause that's important to you or a community that you identify with, that usually tells us that you're going to be that kind of community contributor when you come to campus. So highlighting that on your resume, highlighting that in your application, giving examples of how that has kind of enhanced your experience during undergrad and in your professional career throughout your essays can help us kind of paint a picture of how you're going to contribute at our schools.
[00:18:34] Speaker A: Okay, so Joe, I want to stay on activities and they're kind of this a two parter. I'm hoping you can kind of myth bust a little bit here. So the first is volunteer work is like far more important than some other activity that someone has. Like they're, you know, like let's go to the cycling or running, they run marathons. But reverses say volunteer work. And also there's some people who have jobs that are incredibly demanding, like 70 hour work weeks.
What if they were super active when they were in an academic setting as an undergraduate before president of clubs, etc. Can that compensate if they don't have a super outside activities profile currently?
[00:19:09] Speaker E: You know, I guess I say first of all, don't do those things just to pad your resume. Do it because you love it. Okay, There should be some sort of personal motivation motivation behind this stuff. We realize people have busy lives and some people have families and stuff like that. So not everyone gets to do the summer abroad in Europe and stuff like that.
But highlight the things that you've done and what we like to see is some sort of thread through there. So like for instance, when I was applying to school, I said that I wanted, I was a chemistry major, I wanted to go to medical research because my younger brother died of leukemia. And I wanted to go into research to make sure that other families didn't have to deal with that. That personal motivation is much more impactful. So your volunteer stuff in many cases should align with your interests. Your motivation that makes it much more, you know, are you running for breast cancer because someone in your family had that? That's much more impactful for me. Than if you're just putting something down to be putting something down.
[00:20:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And great points. And I think what we're getting from this, hopefully, is that, you know, you need to. So you need to have the grades and the test scores to, you know, excel in the curriculum. When you're in business school, you've got to have the work experience so that you can go on to an interesting career and also lend to the conversations that happen in class and the outside activities. I mean, these MBA programs are. They're really amazing in terms of how vibrant they are. They're. You know, you're spending a lot of time in clubs, and there are so many activities. In fact, it's like constant fomo. I remember when I did my mba, it was like, wow, how do you decide which activity to go and do? Because there's just so much happening all the time. Clubs, conferences, cocktails, etc. So that's why I think the admissions directors want to see that you are someone who's active, that you're not just, oh, I studied accounting in school. I'm now an accountant. And when I go home, I like to look at numbers and plan the stock market. That's all kind of, you know, that sends a message like, I'm maybe good with numbers, not with people. Right. Which wouldn't be the right message to send. So, yeah, it's. It's a holistic process.
I know that we don't have time to do Q and A, and people don't like that necessarily, but it's because we're trying to do lots of panels and get you to hear from as many schools as possible tonight. But also, if you do have a question, I bet you that each of our panelists would be happy to talk with you at their table out in the main hall. So go and, you know, tell them you saw them say something great on the panel and that you had a question. So thank you so much. Amy, Emily, Kate, and Joe, really appreciate your time.
[00:21:48] Speaker C: It.
