Episode Transcript
[00:00:14] Speaker A: Welcome to the Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast. I'm Graham Richmond and this special episode of the show features audio that were recorded at the NBA fair in Boston. As some of our listeners know, we gathered together 25 of the world's leading MBA programs for a fair in Boston and we did a whole, a whole bunch of panels and we recorded those panels. This episode in particular actually focuses on strategy consulting. And we had a special guest actually come to the fair precisely for this panel. Her name is Susan Caraviello and she is the vice president for consulting recruiting at Bain and Company.
So as many of you know, consulting is a common kind of landing place post mba.
And you know, business schools open lots of doors for jobs. But as I say, you know, consulting is a very popular path. And what we did is we thought what a great opportunity to kind of talk with someone from Bain. And you know, we welcomed Susan and discussed all elements of the recruiting process for consulting, from case interviews and internships to pre MBA programming and full time roles. So stay tuned, give a listen. We're so happy that we're able to record this and allow everyone to tune in who wasn't with us in Boston. So enjoy.
[00:01:31] Speaker B: All right, those of you who are here obviously interested in strategy consulting or at least curious about consulting as a career. I see some nodding heads. So I want to welcome Susan Carraviedo. Am I saying that right? Yes. All right, so Susan is the vice president, is a vice president at Bain & Co. And she's focused on consulting recruiting. How long have you been at Bain?
[00:01:53] Speaker C: Believe it or not, I joined as a summer associate in the summer of 1990. So 35 years ago, in between my two years at business school, I went to Tuck.
And even now I have trouble saying it's been 35 years, but it's flown by in a good way.
[00:02:11] Speaker B: And we should have had you in here in the last panel because there was an admissions director from Tuck here where you went. So I'll have to connect you later. But what I thought would be interesting to talk about today is just consulting is a, it's a big track for people. It's probably the number one job. If we had to say, what's the most common thing that people do after business school? Consulting is way up at the top of the list. You know, some people do banking, but consulting's definitely particularly of late. I feel like it's really taken the top spot. And you know, Bain is one of the top companies in that space too. And so I just thought it'd be really interesting to have a conversation about what is consulting. And again, I was joking in the first session about how I love these sessions because we get to ask questions that I would never have asked when I was going off to business school. So I'm going to ask you those kinds of questions that people would be afraid to ask you.
And so this first one is, what is strategy consulting? No one would ever dare ask you that because they, you know, they probably want to pretend that they know. But what is it?
[00:03:09] Speaker C: Well, it was a good question because I was not aware of strategy consulting when I went to business school.
And it really is helping CEOs solve their toughest problems.
And it was attractive to me because you're exposed to a wide variety of industries, types of companies, types of problems. And it's felt in many ways like an extension of business school. I did not have a lot of great prior business experience before I went to business school. And I loved the variety of classes, the teamwork that you'll get involved with at business school. And so consulting, the more I learned about it felt like, wow, this is kind of an extension in a more practical way of all this amazing stuff I'm learning in a similarly team oriented dynamic environment.
And the learning curve to go from different type of project or company to a different problem that the CEO is facing was just an amazing opportunity to accelerate my learning and kind of build a real broad and deep where I wanted to focus and specialize business toolkit.
So it's.
It will vary a little bit by where you end up in strategy consulting, but if you're looking to really focus on strategy consulting at the top firms, you will get an amazingly broad business foundation that is very attractive long term if you end up wanting to stay. Like me, I did the partner track and was focused on CPG and retail for many years after I kind of explored what I liked and didn't like, thought I might retire and ended up doing recruiting because I have always loved recruiting. But if you decide at some point you don't want to do strategy consulting, it opens so many doors. And so that was another thing that drew me and I think draws so many people to consulting is it's both attractive long term.
You learn so much, you have opportunity to really make a rewarding impact and financial rewards that come with that.
Also, it's a great launching pad to go on to do all sorts of other type of work, both for corporations, private equity firms, nonprofits, you name it.
[00:05:48] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think I've heard this time and time again, this idea that you study all these different subjects in business school and if you go to join a consulting firm afterwards, it's like you've been given a toolkit and you get to like try out each tool that you've been given as you work with different companies and try to help them solve problems. Problems. So it is a really great like finishing process.
[00:06:07] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:06:08] Speaker B: And I hear over and over again I have a lot of classmates from, I went to Wharton and so many of them went to Bain and then they ended up in very senior positions at big time companies. And I presume a lot of them were maybe former clients. Right. So they did a big project for whoever it is, Disney or. And then they end up in some role there. And so as you say, it opens these doors.
So I think it's. Yeah, it just seems like such a great way to go, I guess. I still want to ask you this question, which is what's a typical day? Like what am I doing? I arrive at work, can you just take me through, like what am I, how am I spending my day if I'm a consultant?
[00:06:41] Speaker C: Sure. Let's imagine you're a relatively new consultant. It's a mix of analysis, data gathering and when I say data gathering, it may be doing a big consumer research of customers of a company to understand how they're perceived in the marketplace to help us inform a growth strategy so we can understand what consumers think of the brand and help decide where the company can expand or enter new markets. Or it could be qualitative, you could be on a huge org design or transformation where you're looking at different ways other companies are organized and how effective they are. But part of your role will be kind of gathering data, whether qualitative or quantitative, pulling out the insights. Because nowadays data is everywhere. What's hardest is to actually pull out meaningful insights, then meeting with the team. Consulting is highly collaborative and if you have a team of five or six people, you'll have several different work streams going on. And I might be doing the customer piece. Someone else may be looking at another part of the problem. But we'll get back together frequently to, to share implications so we understand what it means for the overall answer. You'll be sharing preliminary insights with clients. You might have a client call that afternoon, then you might be getting ready for a board meeting the next week. So again you're starting to put together your storyline and how you want to communicate that to the board. So it's really a mix of analytics, client communication and very quickly you'll also have the Opportunity to supervise, because consulting firms hire both at the MBA and undergraduate level. So you may also have an undergrad working for you, and you're coaching them, you're teaching them what to do, how to present their work in the case. Team meeting.
[00:08:46] Speaker B: Excellent. I guess I also want to talk a little bit about strategy consulting. We've kind of established that it's a good destination, it's a popular destination. But I. And I don't know if I'm allowed to mention this, but Bain is a great company. And there are two other companies, McKinsey and BCG, that candidates from business school are always talking about.
[00:09:04] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:09:04] Speaker B: And so I wonder if you could just elaborate, like, what's so great about working at a place like Bain as opposed to maybe other consulting companies? But, you know, just like, why are people so drawn to these three companies and the type of work that they're doing?
[00:09:17] Speaker C: Sure.
Well, McKinsey and BCG are the oldest, and they are great companies. And when you think about strategy consulting, there are a lot of players, but kind of, as you mentioned, Graham, the big three, a lot of people refer to it as MBB, McKinsey, Bain, BCG are really in a class of their own, partly because of the history of attracting the top talent, having the top client relationships, and then more recently in the last 30 years, delivering results.
And so Bain is the new kid on the block, relatively speaking.
Bill Bain spun out from BCG almost 50 years ago because, truthfully, I think it's harder these days to be in business school and differentiate among the three top firms because everybody's talking about it being a great place to learn and work. But when I was in your shoes, it was very different. It was much more of an expertise giving gentlemanly advice to CEOs. And if they didn't do anything about it, well, that's not our problem. As consultants, we just advise. We can't control what they do. And Bill Bain had this insight or this feeling that. That didn't feel very satisfying. So it sounds kind of corny, but he's like, I want results. I don't want to just generate reports and hopes good things happen, because typically they didn't if it was only involving the CEO at the top. So he had the insight to have a Bain team collaborating with clients at all levels of the organization, sharing the preliminary data, insights, recommendations, getting their buy in. So truly collaborating. Because if the junior frontline folks believed in the ideas and recommendations, then good things would happen. So now everybody talks about results. All three firms are focused on results.
And teaming. But I guess what attracted me to Bain and what gets me so excited after all these years is results and teaming and culture of collaboration is in our DNA. We were founded just on that approach. And so our whole business model reinforces it. And we think our culture and collaborative approach with clients and with each other is what sets us apart.
[00:11:47] Speaker B: Got it. And I think, don't they say innovation often occurs on the factory floor? Right. So this idea of collaborating with everyone in the organization, organization, rather than just delivering report to the CEO that may, you know, not do anything other than sit on a shelf is really smart.
Can you take us through?
Like, I know that you probably can't reveal everything, but you're, when you're recruiting and you hire someone, how close are you looking at like their background pre business school? And let's say, let's say they, you know, somebody who studied, you know, economics versus somebody who studied art history as an undergrad. Like, are you, can I, could you still be competitive if you don't have that kind of business background as an undergrad? Or how does that work?
[00:12:28] Speaker C: Absolutely. We are looking for diversity of background, experiences, thinking, because diverse teams come up with more creative solutions and collaborate better with our diverse teams at our clients. And when I think about partners at Bain or friends who are partners at other firms, it's amazing the different backgrounds, whether some are. Some are actually former consultants who want to work for one of the top three. And so they're using business school to kind of trade up, if you will. So that's at one extreme, other people, you know, flew a pilot, were a pilot in the military, flying jets or working in nonprofits or I hired a chef, I've hired an opera singer. I mean, it's really no. 1 formula. And it's funny because I also run our Boston office summer associate internship program. And when I'm talking to the first year business school students who will be joining us this summer to see what they're interested in working on, I would say half of them say, well, well, I'd like a supervisor who, like me, comes from a non traditional background. So literally more than half of the summer class would self describe themselves as very non traditional background, which to me is typical.
There's no one path in terms of background or school that assures you a spot in a top consulting firm.
[00:14:10] Speaker B: And that's been a recurring theme. You weren't listening in the other panels. But you know, we've talked a lot about the versatility of the mba. You can come in from having done kind of anything.
[00:14:18] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:14:19] Speaker B: And. But once you've gone to a top business school, Bain knows that you've had a great education. Exactly.
You will excel.
Let's talk more about recruiting though. What's the like. Can you just walk me through the sort of process let's say I get? Let's say I come here to Sloan or go, you know, to Harvard, across town, wherever I'm going atop the MBA program, Bain's often recruiting. So what's the process look like mechanically?
[00:14:42] Speaker C: Sure. Well, one of the things that I think is great, that's very different now than when I went through the process is it starts early and there's so many opportunities to learn and get supported through the process. So all the top firms have programs even the summer before you start. So if you were going to go to business school not this fall, but next fall, I would say take advantage of some of these early get to know us sessions.
And I will preface this by saying these are all things that make you more familiar with the companies, more confident. But they are not. At least for the Bain, BCG and McKinsey they are not. You have to do all these things and you get a check mark if you show up and if you don't show up, you're dinged. It's not that. But it is true that the more you get to know what is consulting, why you're particularly passionate maybe about one of the three firms, it just makes you a stronger, more compelling candidate. Because the other ways you can get to know people and the process works is in the fall. There will be on campus presentations where they'll be sending representatives from different offices. I encourage you to go to those to stay after to talk one on ones. There will be coffee chats, virtual coffee chats where you can sign up to talk one on one with a consultant in their first couple years to ask them, like, what's it really like? What do you like about this? What don't you like?
There are all sorts of other opportunities for case workshops and one on one case prep, where again, we'll talk more about the interview process. But to start practicing and so specifically in the fall or at business school, there are two ways to come in to a top consulting firm. As a summer associate, you will turn in your resumes typically in the November timeframe of your first year at business school. And then for Bain, BCG and McKinsey, all of the interviews for summer internships happen in January.
Not all firms go back to campus for second year full time recruiting. Bain does. We believe that There are some people who maybe just had a bad day when they showed up for interviews. And so we have partners who didn't get into Bain as a summer associate but got in through full time consulting. Other times people either were late to learn about consulting or wanted to try something different. And again, you can interview again or for the first time as a second year student in the early fall.
[00:17:26] Speaker B: Okay, so it sounds like, yeah, there's work I could do beforehand in terms of getting to know the firm, coffee chats, et cetera. And then there's on campus recruiting, either as a first year when I'm looking for that summer internship or as a second year.
[00:17:38] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:17:39] Speaker B: Do you, I don't know if you can share this.
Is there a percentage of people that if they, if they do the summer, is the chance that they're going to get hired full time post MBA fairly high? I mean, are most of them coming back or. I don't, maybe you can't share that.
[00:17:52] Speaker C: I don't know.
It is high. I don't want to speak for other firms, but I would say for Bain it's extremely high.
And in fact, because we're, we're saving spots knowing that even if 100% of our summer associates get full time offers and accept, we still need more people and we'll go second year, the incentives are aligned. We want all of our summer associates to do well, to get offers and to come back. And if so, we still need more people. Whereas some firms do most of their recruiting as summer interns and, and so sometimes they just have a much bigger class and they make a little more cuts. But, but in general they're high. At Bain they're particularly high.
[00:18:44] Speaker B: Okay, good to know. So I don't know how much the audience knows about consulting interviewing, but I remember when I read the business school there was all this talk about prepping for case interviews.
Raise your hand if you know what a case interview is.
So. Okay. Oh, okay. So people. Okay, so. But I want you to take us through it because I just remember being baffled by this. And then I went and did some interviews and understood. But it's, you know how to like take us through. Like, why do you do these things?
[00:19:12] Speaker C: Yes, we do them because in many ways it does simulate taking a brand new problem, trying to boil it down to the essential pieces and kind of cracking the case, if you will. So the skills are transferable. And I like to think of it as an interesting business problem that you are working through.
And at least at Bain, all of our cases are actual Disguised real work that we have done.
And so typically for again, the top three firms, you'll have one round of interviews that are two cases, they're 40 minute interviews, and then one experience interview. And for the cases, my strong recommendation is go to the case prep workshops, but then practice on your own. I will never forget I went to my case prep workshop at Tuck and I'm like, oh yeah, this makes sense. I see I could get that. And they said, practice one with a friend. They asked me, they got a hold of a sample case, they asked me and I remember I just went blank. I'm like, oh my God, I thought this was going to be easy. And now my mind is blank. I'll never get a job in consulting. So the key is to, to not only go to the case workshops, but then do live practice cases with your roommate, your classmate, your friend.
Because we don't want people to be formulaic. It's not so much about, do I use a certain structure. It's more like, okay, this is a problem about revenue growth.
I could sell more or I could increase the price or do both. Like being able to bucket it in terms of breaking it down. There's usually some math, but again, it's not just a math test. It's more because you're trying to figure out like, will this company be able to make enough money if they enter this new market? And so you will need to maybe do some price times quantity, get you your revenue and see if that's enough. And so we're looking for people that can think logically, you can share your thinking out loud.
And that's why we do cases, because it is demonstrating your ability to have structured thinking and use some math to solve the problem. Not math for math's sake. You do not need to be a math major to do well in case interviews, I promise.
[00:21:50] Speaker B: I often think of it as well as like, you know, eventually the person that you're considering hiring, if you were to bring them on board at some point, they might be put in front of a client and the client's going to ask them a hard question.
[00:22:01] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:22:01] Speaker B: And so it's like a, it's, you know, just seeing, can someone, you know, break down a problem, as you say, and bucket it. And so I think it makes a lot of sense. I do want to ask you though, there are fit, or I think you call them experience interviews.
[00:22:13] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:22:14] Speaker B: So that's the other part. So you're doing the cases and then you have other interviews where it's more of a general Conversation or what? What are those?
[00:22:20] Speaker C: Yes, we call it experience or resume case. But at in consulting, you need the analytical problem solving skills but to be successful. And the people we're looking for are also good communicators, can empathize with clients who are maybe scared to try something new. And so we really value the soft skills as well. And that's how we test that in the experience interview. And so I would think of it more as.
And I don't like the word fit. That's what sometimes people refer to it. There's not one fit. Again, we're looking for a variety.
Extroverts, introverts, people who've had a lot of leadership skills, people who have had none, but are excited to. But we are looking to see those soft skills. And so questions like, you know, tell me about a situation that was extremely challenging to you. How did you overcome that? Or how did you change someone's mind?
Or what's the feedback you got in your old job or organization of what you do particularly well and what's an area you need to keep working on? Since we all have areas that we need to keep developing. So I think of it more as the softer skills that are also as important as the analytic hard skills.
[00:23:48] Speaker B: And are there ever sort of think on your feet type questions in the, in those experience interviews or. That's kind of really. That's reserved for the sort of case interview or might like, because we hear these rumors, right? And I think the most famous one is that, what is it? It's like, how many golf balls can you fit inside the hull of a ship? Or, you know, whatever, right? So is that kind of stuff happening or that's.
[00:24:10] Speaker C: I don't think generally, I can tell you, for Bain, absolutely not.
Because we're just very transparent. Like, we don't want to trip people up. We're really looking to see does this person have the problem solving, the communication, the collaboration skills that will make them successful at Bain. And so we are not looking to trip people up or to throw them curveballs and make it like a stress test. People are already nervous enough, they want the job that's a stress test. Enough just to be in the interview processes. So I've heard those rumors, too. I never experienced it when I was coming to Bain.
And I can tell you now, not only for Boston, but because I'm very involved in North America recruiting.
No Bain offices are trying to do that.
[00:25:08] Speaker B: Okay, good to know.
What about grades and test scores? So, you know, these candidates are coming from business school. You're looking at their transcripts and are you ever asking them like, hey, how'd you do on that GMAT exam? Or the gre?
Are you wondering about that or. No?
[00:25:22] Speaker C: No. It's very different at the undergraduate level. Yes. If you were coming straight out of undergrad, applying for the junior position, they look at test scores and they look at GPAs and you have to submit your transcript when you are coming in at the consultant MBA level, you've already done the hard part getting into a great business school. So we do not look at test scores. And especially in the era where we've gone through Covid, where a lot of scores were test optional, we just again, Bain comes from a very pragmatic. We want results, people who can solve problems and get the client on board.
Just because you can do a theoretical problem doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be great with clients. So we're really focused on when we're trying to figure out who to invite for interviews.
Some accomplishment in your background if you have a very non traditional background, but you also did get amazing grades and had some leadership that factors in as your whole overall background and profile, if you will. But we don't have any cutoffs for grades. A lot of people don't put grades on their resume when they're submitting for interview spot. We don't ask. We ask, but we really don't consider gmat. So there's some things you may see in the form that are like a GMAT or gpa. But typically we're taking a more holistic view.
[00:27:05] Speaker B: And I guess, I mean you're focusing on recruiting at a lot of really great schools. And so on some levels I guess I'm sure the admissions officers that we were talking to earlier would argue they've already done that work for you. Yes, they've kind of selected the best into their programs. And so you're then, you know, benefit.
[00:27:19] Speaker C: Well, that's the great thing about business school. Grades don't matter. Yeah, that's truthfully, it's very GPA oriented as one of many factors to get into business school, which I'm sure y' all have heard about from the admissions directors. But I've never asked someone for a grade. I've never asked them how they've done in a particular class. What I might say is if I'm doing the experience interview is what class has been the most enjoyable for you and why and what's been the hardest and why. I'm really just trying to get to know you.
So we don't have cutoffs. It's much less grade and score focused than you would imagine.
[00:28:01] Speaker B: Okay, I just have two more questions for you. Sure. So the first one. And you kind of. You talked about this a little bit when you were talking about the founder of Bain and his approach. But I just wondered if you could, you know, looking at Bain today, if you could elaborate on, like, what makes it a great place to work and how is it differentiated? Because I think there are some things. Right. That make it a little.
[00:28:21] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:28:21] Speaker B: Even from McKinsey and BCG.
[00:28:26] Speaker C: There are subtle differences. And I attribute, again, so much of it to what's in our DNA. That's all about collaboration, teamwork, and culture.
[00:28:39] Speaker B: And.
[00:28:40] Speaker C: And we feel like client success and our team success are never at odds, that it's a virtual process, and we have all sorts of monitoring things to, like, make sure that teams are happy. We do anonymous frequent case team surveys. We have a culture where if it's not going well, you share it. And the program management will look at that team and be like, oh, my gosh, this team has hit a rough spot. What going on?
Do they need more resources? Because the clients now asked them to do more, and we either need to add more team members or push back, but we take our own people's happiness and success as just a high priority, as a client success, because we feel like they're mutually enforcing. If we have great people who feel like they're stretched and learning but also supported and they will do better work for our clients, they'll be more engaging. Clients will then want to do more work with us. And so we feel like it's a positive loop that reinforces. And we're constantly doing things to invest in our culture. Years ago, we were the first ones to have your upward feedback and your case team surveys be a part of the partner compensation. Just to say, you know, we're serious about this. And there's so much that is just in our DNA around people's excitement to mentor and be mentors for people that people do without any compensation. You may have heard a Bainie never lets another Bainie fail. And that's one of our operating principles where it's just amazingly supportive and focused on helping people grow.
And I think that's why we get a lot of external validation, too. Where I don't know if any of y' all follow Glassdoor, the recruiting website, but we're the only consulting firm that, for the last 12 years, I think since they've been doing the best place to work We've been in the top. We've often been not only the top consulting firm, but like, beating out Apple and Facebook when they were the hottest companies to work as the best place to work. We're consistently above our two competitors, and we're not striving to do that. But that's an outside validation, if you will, that it just feels very supportive. We want it to be sustainable so people will want to stay for as long as we do. And I always laugh saying, I never in a million years would have predicted that I would be at Bain 35 years. But Bain invested in me as if I would, which then.
And they invest in everyone as if they would be there forever. And it tends to then make you want to stay.
[00:31:39] Speaker B: Yeah. So, last question for you, because I recognize we got a lot going on tonight, but if let's imagine that everyone in this room has gotten into a great MBA program and they're heading off to business school. And they also know that they're interested in working at Bain either for the summer or, you know, even long term after business school. What are some things they should be doing? So let's say I'm holding my acceptance letter to MIT Sloan because we're here at Sloan. Like, what am I doing if I already know that I'm interested in Bain?
[00:32:06] Speaker C: Well, I would definitely go on the company websites and register for their summer events. Like in our case, it's called Experience Bain. And starting soon, like in June, July, there will be events that you can dial in and some hosted by offices in person where you can attend and start to learn more about consulting in that particular firm. The other thing that I don't think gets mentioned much, but one piece of advice is don't just start thinking about consulting in which firm, but to the extent possible, have a decent idea of where you want to live. Post business school, things will change. I met my husband this summer. I didn't meet him at Bain, but when I was a summer intern, I met him in Boston. But it does help as you go through the recruiting process to start honing in, even if you're like, well, I'm agnostic, I'm international, I just want to be in the U.S.
still, start trying to hone down what might be your top places, because that's part of the exploration journey in the summer. It's amazing how quickly it moves to kind of being more of an office track, because I offices will send out invites and you'll apply to a specific geographic office in November. So don't stress yourself out and people change their mind for personal reasons all the time. But it will make it easier for you if you can hone in, ideally on one office where you think you want to live and then do coffee chats and go to their in person events because you'll start to get more to know more people. And that's more effective is to feel like you're really getting to know a bunch of people from one office more than you know one person from 12 offices. You don't even need to get to know that many people. I'm just making an extreme example. So don't forget the geographical piece.
[00:34:18] Speaker B: Okay. I'm glad that you said that. I feel it's like insider tip here. I mean, that's really good. And I also do think that, you know, the business schools won't admit this, but there's a lot of regionality even within business schools. You know, you even take a school like MIT or Harvard, people are, you know, by and large landing in the northeast corridor. I mean, it's, there's a definite geographic factor when it comes to even the best business schools.
I do want to say before we wrap this panel up, Susan's been kind enough to say that she's going to stick around out in the hallway just outside, and she's brought Danny with her from the Bain office in Boston as well.
So I strongly encourage you all to go out and chat with them if you have any interest in Bain while we're kind of breaking and, you know, going to move on to the next session. But Susan, thank you so much for coming.
[00:35:00] Speaker C: Oh, my pleasure, Graham.
[00:35:02] Speaker B: I really appreciate it. And yeah, and Danny, too. Thanks for coming and being here to talk to people afterwards.
[00:35:06] Speaker C: My pleasure. And I'm thrilled y' all are interested in consulting and good luck with the business school applications process.
[00:35:13] Speaker B: All right, thank you.
It.
