Episode Transcript
[00:00:16] Speaker A: Welcome to the clear admit MBA admissions podcast. I'm Graham Richmond, and this is your wiretaps for Monday, September 2, 2024. For more than 100 years, Emory University's Guiseueta Business School has been a training ground for principal leaders and a laboratory for powerful insights. Whether you're looking to accelerate your career or make a career pivot, Emory's one year and two year full time MBA programs prepare you for a lifetime of career confidence. Learn more about Emory's top 20 MBA with top five career outcomes offering world class academics and small by design classes delivered in a dynamic global city. More at Emory Bizdez Slash clearadmit, I'm joined by Alex Brown from Cornwall, England. Alex, how are things going this week?
[00:01:05] Speaker B: Very good, thank you, Graham.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: So this episode is airing on Labor Day in the United States, so hopefully people are barbecuing or enjoying a nice day off if you're in the US tuning in. But Alex, I'm guessing people may not be really relaxing and you're here to tell us why.
[00:01:21] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, obviously round one applications have now begun. Last week it was Cambridge judge first out of the gate. But this week we've got some more big hitters. We've got Harvard, Wharton, London Business School, all with their first round deadlines. We've also got early action deadlines from Fuqua, Darden and Mendoza. So things are really kicking off.
[00:01:44] Speaker A: Yeah, deadlines, deadlines, deadlines. And speaking of things kicking off, we are starting our September event series next week. So on the 11 September at noon Eastern, we'll do a webinar with INSEAD, London Business School, Wharton, Michigan, Ross and Emory, they're all joining us. I'm going to emcee that event sign up if you haven't already, you can do so at bit ly insidemba. Could be a good session for either last minute tips for some of these app deadlines, or certainly for those of you looking at round two, we are going to talk both application strategy and a little bit about interviewing. So whether you're around one or two, these events should be of interest. We also are doing events following two Wednesdays on the 18th and the 25th with an additional set of schools. So stay tuned for more. But you can sign up in advance. That'll be a lot of fun. I'm looking to get. I'm looking forward to getting back into the event stuff. Alex.
[00:02:39] Speaker B: Yeah, we've already got a load of sign ups, so it's brilliant.
[00:02:42] Speaker A: I know. Yeah, definitely over on the website, just some fun kind of news stories that we've done one was we did a story about Olympic athletes at the Paris Games who had mbas from top schools. So we talked about, I guess there were some MBA students from the likes of Wharton, Cambridge, had a couple at the Olympics, Cambridge judge, and then we even had, I think, a Duke Masters in management student that we talked about as well. So it's kind of fun to just read about these incredible athletes who somehow found time to keep that going while working on their MBA or having already done an MBA. Just crazy to me, it's such an intensive commitment to do the Olympics. So, anyway, always impressed to see those folks out there.
[00:03:24] Speaker B: Very impressive.
[00:03:26] Speaker A: Yeah. So the other thing, Alex, is, and this was, I gotta hand it to you, we ran a piece where we went through all the US MBA programs that have a STEM designation either for their program in its entirety or for a certain major or concentration that you have to pursue. So that was total credit to you. Very useful piece. And there's a nice chart in there that literally explains. And for those of you who don't know, if you're an international student and you get a STEM designated MBA, it means you can work for three years afterwards in the United States without a special visa. So that gives you plenty of time to apply for an h, one b, and all that via your company. So big kind of game changer. And, Alex, you've been kind of always had an eye on this. I mean, even from way back when, when Rochester first unveiled a StEM designated MBA.
[00:04:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I think this is super important. And credit to Rochester for going down this path. Credit to every other top business school for eventually following along. But where's Sloan? It surprises me. Of all the top schools that we cover, Sloan seems to be an outlier. Graham?
[00:04:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know, actually. Yeah, I noticed they're not on the list, and I'm not sure what the rationale is there. Yeah. I mean, especially for a school that's technical. So maybe. I mean, maybe we missed it or something, but I think it's. I don't know if you've looked into it further, but it's. Yeah, that is an interesting outlier.
[00:04:49] Speaker B: We need to explore that.
[00:04:50] Speaker A: Yeah, we shall. All right, so meanwhile, on the website, we did also run a couple of admissions tips. One is about how to do your MBA program research and to get those rich kind of anecdotes and maybe even find some advocates for you in the process. So read that. We also had an admissions tip about knowing your application reader, which is accompanied by a video that you and I recorded. Alex, one of our favorite, or my favorite sessions in the admissions academy video series. So lots of important stuff. I mean, obviously, you always want to know your audience when you're applying to school or marketing yourself to anything or marketing a product, you got to know your audience. And that was what that tip is about. So you can read that. We've also been connecting, continuing to connect with admissions directors at top schools. So we ran Adcom Q and A's on the website from HEC, from Imperial, UNC, Kenan Flagler, Washington University, Olin, and then Kellogg over at Northwestern, as well as UCLA Anderson. So a lot of really good Adcom Q and A's that you should be reading if you're applying to any of those programs. And then, Alex, before we get into our candidates this week, I just wanted to mention that we started this new series. One of our writers, Peggy, started this series about famous MBA alumni. And I think it kind of follows nicely from the conversation that you and I had last week about kind of the value of the MBA. And it's just fascinating. I had no idea how many of these people leading big organizations have MBAs. Right. So we did. I guess there've been four pieces so far. One was a tech piece we did one on healthcare and retail, another on finance and I, philanthropy. Sorry. And then finally automotive and energy. And it's just, I mean, these big companies that are known brands, they're loaded with MBA grads from the very top schools. So very, very interesting to kind of read about those individuals and understand their path and. Yeah, just good stuff. And I really appreciated that series from Peggy.
[00:06:45] Speaker B: Yeah. And it really validates the value of the MBA, which, as you pointed out, we talked about at some length during our last wiretaps episode.
You generally believe Silicon Valley folks don't need mbas, but when they actually grow their businesses and they become quite substantial, that seems to be when the MBA credential really sort of helps out or, you know, the MBA experience, I should say. So other than Tesla or SpaceX or whatever else company that Elon Musk owns, I think having an MBA is a real asset.
[00:07:28] Speaker A: Yeah, agreed. So any of that, read those pieces. If you're curious to see who was profiled, that's a lot of the names that you might expect to see. And from big, big companies. Other than that, on the podcast, we did run some mini episodes, the last of those mini episodes from the GMAC conference, we connected with Alex Lawrence at UCLA and Donna Levinson over at MIT Sloan. And obviously there is, I don't know if I want to. Well, I'll just kind of spoil. I did a special interview, an Adcom Q and a episode with David Simpson at London business School that should be forthcoming. We're working on that to get it produced. So that'll be fun as well. So stay tuned. It'll be wherever you're listening to this show, you can find it. Other than that, Alex, if people want to write to us, they can write to infolereadmit.com and use the subject line wiretaps. We will respond if you write to us, so please reach out if you have any questions or just want to share anything at all about the show or your process in the kind of application cycle this year. Alex, other than that, I guess we should get into this week's candidates. No?
[00:08:30] Speaker B: Let's kick on.
[00:08:31] Speaker A: All right, so this is wire taps, candidate number one.
Our first candidate this week has six schools on the target list, and those schools are Columbia, Harvard, MIT, Kellogg, Stanford, and Yale. This person is looking to start school in the fall of 25. They've been working in fintech, and they're thinking about pivoting into consulting after business school. They have Bain, BCG, and McKinsey on the target list, and their GMAT score is a 730. Their GPA is a 72nd percentile, or no. Sorry. 72% is their GPA. Sorry. And they did mention to us, though, that that actually was equivalent to top 10% in the school that they attended. They have four years of work experience. They're located in South Africa, which is where they went to school, and they want to land in the US after business school. They also shared the fact that they are an african white male, and they're kind of just looking for some guidance, Alex, about where we would place them. Like, they seem to indicate they're unsure where to apply. And they're particularly kind of wondering, do they have what it takes for, say, Harvard, Stanford, Wharton, and other leading MBA programs, or is it not sufficient? And they also shared the fact that, you know, they'll have four years and eight months by the time they matriculate. In terms of work experience, they've had a nice progression at work from kind of data analyst to product owner, and now they're kind of responsible for a whole new product at their firm. They also have started an organization that's focused on animal welfare. And they do events. They raise donations. They typically have about 50 people coming to each of the events that they organize. So they're doing some outside activities. Alex, but what do you make of the rest of their profile and this very specific question about whether they're qualified to kind of get into an m seven type program.
[00:10:24] Speaker B: Yeah, and they had another question too, which I'll get into as I wrap this bit up. But I mean, quite frankly, I think they should be applied to m seven programs. It looks like they've got really good progressive work experience. They should be able to show growth and impact.
They've gone from an analyst role effectively to a product ownership role, etcetera, in that sort of tech finance type space. So that all sounds really, really good. I think 730 GMAT is going to be close to the average of the very top schools. That 72%. That places them in the top 10% in terms of class rank. So they might need to just reflect that very briefly in an optional essay just so that the Adcom can best interpret their undergraduate performance.
They also have started a nonprofit, which I think complements what they've done in the professional world really well. It shows how well rounded they are. It shows how compassionate they are. It's in a sort of the space of animal welfare. So if they can show some impact through. Through that experience too, I think that's going to be really good. They're coming from South Africa, so they're not coming from an over represented country. There's just a lot of ingredient here, Graham, that I think puts them in the top echelon of candidates. So they should be applied to these top schools. They did have this one additional question, and that was whether they should pursue a consulting opportunity before beginning business school. And their rationale for that is, would they be better served getting a brand name on their resume prior to business school at this late juncture.
Alternatively, they would get a promotion at work, sort of continues their advancement. I'm pretty keen to suggest they stay at their current role, Graham, but I'd let you sort of add to that thought.
[00:12:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it is interesting because they were suggesting that if they could get a kind of top tier consulting job, they actually have an offer from what they described as a tier two consulting firm, but they're still in the running. I guess they've been applying to jobs at McKinsey, Bain and BCG that they felt like that would enhance their odds of getting into a top MBA program. And I would say ordinarily coming from one of those top firms sure is a nice signal, but I. But coming from one of those top firms that you've literally just joined as you're applying to business school doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And I think there are a couple of reasons. I mean, number one, if I'm an admissions reader, I'm saying, wait a second, how's this person going to get enough experience in the few months that remain before they leave to come to business school? That would really add value to their candidacy. And then the other side of it, too, that really concerns me is that it suggests that they're kind of going to leave whatever firm they're joining in the lurch. Like, they're going to go there and then just leave to go to business school within a matter of months. So I don't like that. I mean, unless somehow the employer is like, oh, we know they want to go off to business school. That's all part of the hiring. That we made them an offer knowing that they were going to come. Like, okay, maybe. But still, it just seems disruptive, and it's not. I don't really understand why they would do it. I think they need to buckle down and focus on the applications for now. That's my view. And stay in their job, get that promotion, etcetera. I don't think they need it.
[00:13:57] Speaker B: I just throw a couple of things at you, Graham, just to further clarify, what if you understood that their current work experience was all through their family business?
[00:14:10] Speaker A: Yeah. So do you think that's the case? Because they did mention in the long term they want to join their family's tech business. Now, they didn't. I don't know if they specified that the current job.
[00:14:18] Speaker B: They didn't make that clear.
[00:14:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, even still, like, I don't have a problem with. I mean, it sounds like they have some legitimate milestones to point to in the family business. So I still would say, you know what, go to business school, then go to MBB. You'll have a much easier path to MBB from a Wharton or a Harvard or whatever school they want to go to. It just doesn't feel necessary to me, and it feels disruptive, as I said before. So, yeah, I don't know if you agree.
[00:14:45] Speaker B: I couldn't agree with you more. I'll add one more question, though, because I do find this a very interesting point. I think lots of people potentially wrestle with it. Let's say McKinsey or Bain or BCG did make them an offer.
Does expressing to Adcom that they stayed at their firm, but they did have an offer to join an MBB. Should they? Should they do that?
[00:15:11] Speaker A: Boy, I mean, you know, on the one hand, you say, wow, that's impressive. They have an offer on the other hand, it just feels like they're trying to kind of put some feathers in their cap and show off a bit. So it's just so hard to know how to interpret that. Although I could see an optional essay in which they explain that earlier this year they explored potential employment and consulting because that's kind of their short term goal. And that while they did receive offers from A, B and C, they just realized that they really would benefit first from getting the NBA, joining one of those firms at a higher level, and then moving on with the rest of their career. So I could see maybe something along those lines and maybe that's just even part of their career narrative when they write those essays. I don't know, but I'm not inclined to just sort of brag about it. I think it needs to be part of a broader sort of story.
[00:15:58] Speaker B: I couldn't agree more, and even as the example that you shared does sound a bit more palatable, but it's a bit of a stretch. I think we both completely agree. Stick with the current firm, get the promotion, continue to show that growth and impact.
I think that's their best option by far.
[00:16:19] Speaker A: Yeah, agreed. All right, well, enough on this candidate, obviously. Best of luck and thanks to them for sharing their profile. Let's move on though, and talk about wiretaps. Candidate number two.
So our second candidate this week has a whopping eleven schools on the target list. They include Duke, Emery, Georgetown, Johns Hopkins, Michigan, Kellogg, University of Washington, UNc, Wharton, UVa, and Yale. This person, though, has a very unorthodox career to date. They obviously they want to start school. They claim here in the fall, 25, but we learned later from the comments that they're not sure if it's 25 or 26. They have a sort of unorthodox career. They've been working in global health research and post MBA. They're thinking about consulting or maybe pharma. And they mention, you know, the requisite firms, you know, from the BCGs and Baines and McKinsey's to the, you know, Merck, Novartis, Pfizer's, et cetera, Johnson and Johnson. So they don't know yet. They have a 330 on the GRE, which is a terrific score. Their GPA in undergrad is a three point, although they do mention that they have a master's degree from a top university.
And so I don't know what the GPA was there. That would be helpful information to have. They've got four years of work experience located in the US and looking to stay in the US and they mentioned that they studied chemistry as an undergrad at a liberal arts college and then they have this MS in oh gosh, I'm going to have trouble epidemiology from a top university and they've been working in academia at a top university with multiple publications in top journals and they've got one year working in what is that, sub saharan Africa, I guess that is. So this is an interesting thing, Alex, in that they're really looking to pivot and they say that they want to gain a better understanding of business operations, finance to combine with the background in healthcare and data science, and that they want to work ideally in healthcare consulting for a large nonprofit like the Gates foundation down the road.
So they're thinking the MBA might be a good way to transition from this kind of research to more implementation or operations. So what do you make of this, Alex? Because on the one hand, you might say, you know, this person doesn't have a ton of like business experience. They're kind of a researcher, right. An academic almost. Right. So what would you make of that?
[00:18:39] Speaker B: Yeah, this is your real sort of atypical, unorthodox candidate.
So they're not coming from any sort of traditional business background and you know that because of that, it presents challenges and opportunities in the admissions process. On the opportunity side, they're going to be a different type of candidate, they're going to be a different type of student and potentially add a lot of sort of value because of their different perspectives, etc. Etc.
But they're also going to have to show that they fit in.
So with the schools that they target, that they fit, whether it's through the sort of the academic experience, the extracurricular experience and the career resources and so on and so forth forth. So they're going to have to sort of define their experience to date in the frameworks of being able to show impact and growth despite the fact that their experience is going to be quite different.
So they might be able to do that through the sort of research agenda that they've had. They've been second authors on various papers, how they've managed that process, how they've potentially pushed boundaries in certain fields and topics and subject areas, etcetera, how they sort of then had this potential epiphany that actually with their long term vision in mind that is going to the gates foundation or similar and making an impact at a large level, really understanding how the MBA is the sort of transition gateway for them in order to do that. And I think they can do all this, but they're going to have to do it very thoughtfully and so forth. So they don't just come across as an academic looking for another degree, which doesn't. That doesn't come across to me at all.
I really do like their vision and what they're planning to do. They've got, you know, obviously a very strong gre that will help overcome potentially a slightly lower GPA, as you sort of pointed out, would be nice to know a little bit more about their GPA in grad school.
But quite frankly, Graham, I like this candidate. Quite different reasons from our first candidate, but both seem really super interesting.
[00:21:08] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I feel like this is the kind of candidate that you love to read when you're an admissions officer, just because it's kind of just such a different take. And I think ordinarily when you see someone coming from academia, the first concern is, do they have the sort of chops to make it in a kind of quantitatively rigorous MBA program? But the nice thing here is that this academic happens to be a chemistry undergrad and then a master's in epidemiology. Right? So there's probably very limited concern, and that's evidence, I think, in the GRE score, 330, which presumably has got to be pretty well balanced. So I think that's the nice thing here. I guess you might wonder, well, what kind of leadership experience and stuff, but there's probably a lot of teamwork involved. And like you, I love the vision. You know, this person has a clear vision for what they want to do. Gates foundation, like, they know that they can make a greater impact on the business side, and they need those business skills to do it. Right. So I. Yeah, I like this. And I think they have a list of schools that's far too long. I would encourage them to kind of cut it down a bit. They do have a nice range. You know, I would say Johns Hopkins on their list is probably going to be the easiest program to get into in terms of admissions difficulty. But then they also, on the other end of the spectrum, we're seeing schools like Wharton. Right. So they have a really broad range, which is great. But I would encourage them to knock that list back to maybe five or six to target in the first round or something, if they're ready, and then they could always add in the second round. But I think this is going to play well.
Like you said, it'd be nice to know the GPA from the masters. Ideally, it's at least a three two, if not, maybe a three five or something. That would help their case as well. But I think this is a solid candidate who probably will get into some of these top programs and could probably aim on the higher end of the spectrum here and you know, keep that focus on healthcare. You probably noted this, Alex. They've got all the healthcare schools on their list.
[00:23:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
Again, I think they've thought about this very deliberately. The one last point I'll ask you to comment on, Graham, is their recommenders. How would they source those recommenders? And I think their recommendations are going to be really, really important.
[00:23:19] Speaker A: Yeah, that's actually a great point.
And this happens even with candidates who are maybe working in the business world but not in a traditional feeder kind of industry or something. And I think the key is to just educate your recommenders. So we have a load of tips and videos on our website that can sort of teach you how to manage your recommenders. Because the only thing that you got to be careful about is that the recommenders understand why you're going off to business school and don't end up writing something about how, you know, this candidate would make, you know, a great sort of PhD or something that's, you know, not at all oriented. Right. So you need to educate the recommenders so they understand why you'd want to go to business school and also that, so that they're kind of on board with it. Right. You don't want to have someone who's kind of, you know, so academic that they kind of poo poo the MBA or something. Right. So I think that's going to be important. This person needs to connect with their recommenders and make sure that they're all on the same page, that they understand the goals, etcetera. Anything you want to add to that? I mean that could be challenging, but it's important for this person to do.
[00:24:23] Speaker B: Yeah, and like you say, we've got a ton of resources in terms of prepping recommenders and I just think this candidate would be well guided to immerse themselves in understanding the importance of that piece of the process and how it's effectively different to if they were applying to a PhD program.
[00:24:44] Speaker A: Yeah, and I think, I think that sometimes people feel like you put the recommender's name and email into the system and you're done and that's not the case. They got to share the career goals essay, share the resume, share their specific interest in each program they're applying to, et cetera, and knock that list back from eleven schools because I don't think the recommenders are going to want to do eleven schools. So, yeah, come in with a smaller list of five or six or something and go from there. But yeah, that's great point you're making. And yeah, it's important to educate your recommenders, that's for sure. I want to thank that person, obviously, for sharing their profile. I'll be really curious to know how things turn out. So hopefully they'll update us on their post. Let's move on though, and talk about wiretaps. Candidate number three.
So our final candidate this week has seven schools on the target list. Those schools are Carnegie Mellon, Tepper, Duke, Emery, Michigan, UNc, UT, Austin and Vanderbilt. This person also wants to start in the fall of 25. They have been working in banking and their post MBA target industry. They actually list consulting, banking and consumer goods. They mentioned companies, though that are exclusively in consulting. They mentioned Accenture and BCG. This candidates GPA is a stellar 3.88. Their GRE, which they say they plan to retake, is a 312. They have four years of work experience, they're located in Ghana and they want to end up in the US. What do you make of this, Alex? We don't have a lot more to go on, but they did say they're a chartered accountant and a chartered banker and they're again planning to retake the GRE.
[00:26:20] Speaker B: Yeah, just a couple of quick points on this candidacy, Graeme, and I don't think we need to spend a whole lot of time on it. One is they have to retake this Grenada test and bump that 312 up to what would be the equivalent of someone that has a 3.88 GPA. So if they're that smart over four years in college, they really need to get a representative GRE score.
So. And then the other point, I think, is their career goals, you know, bouncing between finance and consulting, you can't recruit for both, not recruit for both effectively.
And ADCoM are very keen to pick up on that. So they will effectively penalise candidates that haven't got a very well thought out short term goal that takes that candidate to a really sort of aspirational and thought out long term goal. So pick either consulting or finance and articulate why all that makes sense, etc, etc. But I got to think, you know, they've got four years of experience in consulting. Hopefully they've done well there. They can show impact and growth.
They get that Gre score up into the mid three hundred twenty s and fine tune those goals. Graham, they should be competitive.
[00:27:51] Speaker A: Yeah, and actually, just one correction. So the four years of experience they have been in banking. And that's why they're chartered.
[00:27:56] Speaker B: Oh, sorry.
[00:27:57] Speaker A: They're a chartered accountant and a chartered banker, which I presume is maybe similar to CFA type stuff in Ghana. I guess that does kind of beg the question as to should they continue with investment banking? Is that the easier kind of path? Or should they say they want to pivot into consulting? I don't think it matters that much. I think the key thing, as you said, is they got to pick a path because otherwise they just look kind of lost. And then the other point you're making is, great. They have to up the GRE. Otherwise, I mean, I see they have a range of kind of admissions difficulty in terms of the school selection on their list. But if they're looking for any scholarship dollars, getting a competitive GRE score will help. So I think, as you said, get a gre that is commensurate with that 3.88 gpa. Show us that you're at that same level on the test because that's going to be important.
One other thing, and this is just really related to the candidate we just talked about, our second candidate this week. That candidate was also kind of wondering about 2006 versus 2005. And as I looked at this candidate, I was just reminded of that. And I think my view was that I didn't feel that that candidate, our second candidate this week, needed to keep working. I think four years in research and stuff is probably enough for them to head off to business school, especially given they're trying to make a career pivot. But I just wanted to mention that because I know that they were on the fence about it.
[00:29:19] Speaker B: Yeah, no, very good point. And if they're not successful this season, they can reapply and they're not penalized for being a reapplicant. And in fact, there are several advantages of being a reapplicant.
[00:29:32] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So, in any event, Alex, I want to thank you for picking these three candidates. I know that we had those couple of shows, these last couple of shows where we talked about sort of big picture issues. Hopefully those were useful for people to kind of learn more about our background, learn more about why we think the NBA is valuable. But now we're back into the busy season. So I think we're going to start digging in on a lot of, there's going to be a lot of news and notes. We'll talk about it next week. But UCLA has just published their class profile for the incoming class, which looks pretty off the charts. I'm kind of seeing a lot of people signing up for our events, Alex. Which makes me think that this might be another busy season in terms of application volume. So we'll see how it plays out. But happy to do this all again next week, if you're willing.
[00:30:14] Speaker B: Brilliant. Very, very good. Best of luck, everyone. Stay safe.
