Episode Transcript
[00:00:15] Speaker A: Welcome to the clear admit MBA admissions podcast. I'm Graham Richmond, and this is your wiretaps for Monday, April 8, 2024. Are you looking for an MBA program where you'll be more than just a number? Vanderbilt Business offers a personalized learning experience to help each student reach their unique career goals. Whether you're looking to switch careers entirely or accelerate the path you're on, the Vanderbilt MBA program will provide you with the individual support you need to propel your career forward. Vanderbilt is currently waiving their $200 application fee for MBA wiretaps. Listeners to learn more about the Vanderbilt MBA program at to claim your application fee waiver, visit business vanderbilt.edu clearadmit. I'm joined by Alex Brown from Cornwall, England. Alex, how are things going this week?
[00:01:01] Speaker B: Very good, thank you, Graham.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: So, we still need everybody's help with our survey. This might be the last week that I bug everyone, but if you could go to bit ly, caspring survey, all one word, all lowercase, and fill out our survey, we would greatly appreciate it. It'll take you less than ten minutes. You get to answer all kinds of fun questions about how many schools you applied to or thinking of applying to, and how you determine whether to add or subtract. And there's even some fun questions in there about return on investment and how you frame any thinking about return on investment from an MBA. So, please take the survey if you can, and that way I can stop talking about it on the show here. Other than that, what's been going on, Alex?
[00:01:45] Speaker B: Yeah, no, the end of decision weeks for round two.
And so for last week, we saw Sloan was the last of the big schools, effectively, to release all their decisions for round two. Cornell, Johnson also releasing some decisions, some of their decisions. Stern, probably, I think, was in the mix, but we are heavily now into round three application cycle. So lots of round three deadlines last week, this week, next week, and so forth. So, yeah, it's the changing of the tide, Graeme.
[00:02:20] Speaker A: Yeah, so. And, you know, I think we've.
We've been trying to help those who are, you know, finishing round two and have decisions in hand. So we actually ran a couple of admissions tips that are relating to this. So, one is choosing between schools. If you're in the fortunate situation of having more than one offer, we have an admissions tip that is literally called choosing between schools, with a lot of good advice about how to go about doing this. And then the second thing, we ran a tip that I gotta give you credit for, Alex, which is about making the most of admitted students events, or sometimes known as welcome weekends. So maybe, I don't know if you wanna say a word or two about that, but that's an admissions tip, that. Very timely, and particularly in this month of April, right?
[00:03:05] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, April is the month for the big admit events that schools sponsor, many of which bring admitted candidates to campus and so forth. And there are really two broad goals here to these events. One is to help the candidate make their final decision.
So they're obviously very well set up for that. They're on their best behaviour, they do some really good things. And the second is, yeah, maybe you already know where you want to go, but it's certainly still worthwhile attending because it begins, you know, you're networking with other admitted students, with current students, maybe you're finding some housing together and so on and so forth. So even those that know where they want to go, I think there's a lot of value in attending these events. Graham.
[00:03:57] Speaker A: Yeah, totally agree. And I, you know, I was telling you earlier that I met my closest friend at Wharton by going to the admitted students weekend. You know, we just happened to, you know, it's a kind of networking event. Ran into this guy named Damian. He was from Australia originally and ended up being in my cohort at Wharton and just a really good friend. So it's a nice way to get a head start on kind of just building your social network and getting a head start even on housing and such as you say.
[00:04:27] Speaker B: I think I even know this person. Damien.
[00:04:30] Speaker A: Yeah, you know Damien? Yeah, yeah. You probably admitted him right along with me and everybody else in that class.
[00:04:35] Speaker B: I'm not taking credit for that, but I do. Yeah. He seems a really, really cool dude. Yeah, yeah.
[00:04:41] Speaker A: So definitely check out those admissions tips if you have decisions in hand and are going to be attending these types of admitted student events. I did want to do one plug for an event. I mentioned this last week on May 15, we're gathering in Chicago. We're going to gather together, I think, about 20 top MBA programs from across the United States. We've got Harvard, Chicago, Kellogg, MIt, Columbia, Stern, Duke, Darden, Cornell. The list goes on. Tuck, Berkeley. I mean, basically every top school is.
[00:05:12] Speaker B: Coming to this event except your alma mater.
[00:05:14] Speaker A: Well, not yet. I'm actually still working on Wharton to see if I can come as well. Yeah, but in any event, you can sign up by going to bit ly cachicagofair. Mostly this is for people in the Chicago area. But obviously, if you want to have a fun trip to Chicago and connect with like 20 admissions officers from all these leading business schools at once. This is a good place to do it. We're going to have panel discussions. We're going to have a kind of fair set up with tables and things. So should be fun. You can join us for that. And then after that, later in May, we're going to be doing a handful of virtual events. We'll have more coming on that soon, but we've got our application overview workshops that we'll run for all of you that are thinking about applying next cycle. Lots to come. Alex, I did have a couple of news items on the website. We continue to run the Real Humans series where we connect with alumni from business schools and see kind of how they, where they've landed, what jobs they are in, and just what advice they have. So the first person I wanted to share with you is this guy named Nishant who went to London business School. He graduated in the class of 22 and he originally, before business school, had been working at Bain and he landed at Uber in a senior kind of operations strategy role. And we asked him, what is one piece of advice you wish you had been given during your MBA? That was one of many questions we asked, but I've got a quote here. And he said, just keep swimming. It's easy to feel like you're not good enough after a few setbacks. But instead of letting imposter syndrome take over, I'd remind myself that it's normal to face rejection and focus on staying confident. Setting realistic timelines and staying determined is key. It's all about bouncing back and keeping your chin up. So kind of a nice piece of advice from Nishant, who graduated from LBS and now is at Uber.
[00:07:06] Speaker B: Yeah, no, absolutely. Fantastic.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: Yeah. And then we also connected with Eric, who is a University of Maryland Smith grad from the class of 20. So he's been working for several years now post MBA, and it seems like it's paying off. He's at Merck. He is the associate director for manufacturing finance in their biologics division. Originally from New Jersey, this guy, and had worked in banking, actually as an investment banker before business school. And we asked him, one of the questions we ask is, were there any surprises regarding your current employer's recruiting process?
And he said, I would not call it a surprise since mbas have to know how to walk someone through a simple discounted cash flow analysis. But in my second interview, I was asked to write down and walk through a DCF on an experimental treatment that they had given me data on. Again, I don't find this terribly unusual, especially for a finance interview, but it highlights the need for being overly prepared. So what do you think of that, Alex? How would you handle that in an interview?
[00:08:10] Speaker B: I'm not a finance person person, so I wouldn't be interviewing for that job, and I wouldn't know anything about discounted cash flows. Well, I know a little bit, right. Because I do have an MBA. But, yeah, I am a big believer. And we've talked about this before, Graham. You cannot over prepare for interviews, because the more you prepare, then the more relaxed you can be and the more enjoyable the interview can be. Yeah.
[00:08:37] Speaker A: And it sounds like this is a.
[00:08:38] Speaker B: Good example of that effect, basically, yeah.
[00:08:41] Speaker A: Yeah. It sounds like in this instance, he's interviewing for a job at Merck where he's going to, probably, in this finance role, have to assess the kind of value of different projects from the finance side. And so giving him this, having him do this discounted cash flow analysis for them, was a smart move on their part. And it sounds like he must have done well because he's still there, got the job and everything. So our last real human that we connected with was Taylor. She's a Wharton grad from the class of 22, and she's currently working at General Mills as a senior associate brand manager. Prior to business school, she'd gone to Yale for undergrad and worked at Deloitte for several years. And we asked her, what's one piece of advice you wish you'd been given during your MBA? And she says, I wish someone had told me to worry less about my major and just take classes that interested me. After graduating one credit away from three majors, I realized that a major comes together quite easily. You don't need to spend time actively planning it. Just learn from professors you find intriguing, leave room to explore brand new topics, and be open to redirection. While I was interested in analytics coming in, I didn't end up majoring in it. And there's nothing wrong with that. I still ended up in a role and at a company that I love. So that was kind of interesting take from Taylor, who went to Wharton.
[00:09:55] Speaker B: Yeah, no, absolutely fantastic. I hope she took Peter Fader's class.
[00:09:59] Speaker A: Your favorite marketing professor. Yeah. So I think it is a good point. The same thing happened to me at Wharton, and I'm sure this happens at a lot of schools where it is relatively easy because of the core curriculum. And then you do get a number of electives to piece together multiple majors. I mean, it's in schools that offer majors right. So I think she's got a good take on this. Just explore.
Other than that, Alex, we do have, or always have a need for more reviews and ratings of the podcast. So if you're listening, just take a moment to pull up your phone, draft us a little review if you're listening on Apple, or at least rate the show on Spotify or wherever you might be tuning in. We always love to hear from you and it helps spread the word about the show. You can also write to Alex and I by using the email address infoclearadmit.com and also make sure you put wiretaps in the subject line. We will write you back. There are many out there who can attest to the fact that we do write back when we are emailed, so reach out if you can. Alex, anything else on your side before we start talking about this week's candidates?
[00:11:04] Speaker B: No? Let's kick on.
[00:11:05] Speaker A: All right, so this is wiretaps candidate number one.
Our first candidate this week has seven schools on the target list, and those schools are Columbia, Dartmouth, London Business School, Michigan, NYU, Oxford, and Uva Darden. They want to start school in the fall of 25 and they had have been working in consulting and also in a strategy role in the payments industry. So a couple of different experiences before business school here. They're interested potentially in consulting or maybe tech. They're not really decided yet. And the companies they have on their target list are all consulting firms for now. So Accenture, Bain, BCG and McKinsey, they have a GRE score of 319 and they have a GPA of 3.1. They've got five years of experience. They're located in New York City and they want to either stay in New York after business school or end up in the EU.
They mentioned in the notes, actually, that they applied and were rejected from London business School this year. This was after an interview. So they were invited to interview, but rejected after that. They said that they had a very well written application, demonstrated tremendous interest in the school, solid interview, an alumni recommendation. They felt like they did everything they possibly could have and they indicate that they plan to reapply to lbs and then obviously add a bunch of schools this next time out. And they mentioned they were really just shocked by the outcome with lbs. So, Alex, what do you make of this? Because I don't feel shocked at all reading this, but what's your take?
[00:12:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, this is quite, quite, quite difficult really, because at the end of the day, they did get invited to interview and lots of candidates have this assumption that once you're invited to interview, the decision then is effectively based on the performance in that interview and so on and so forth.
And whilst the performance in the interview is going to be really important, the final decision will be based on everything that the candidate presents. Now, let's just imagine, for the sakes of lbs and I'm making these numbers up. So I don't know if they're absolutely correct, but let's say they interview 50% of their applicants. So this candidate fell into that top 50% of all the candidates applying to LBS based off of their application, their numbers, their work experience and so on and so forth. And let's say LBS admits 50% of those that they interview.
Now, let's assume this candidate fell in that top 50% to get the interview. But maybe they were at the end of that sort of spectrum in maybe the 14, 8th or 49th percentile or whatever it is, and their interview wasn't strong enough to put them into. Move them up to that top 25%, right, or something like that. I don't know if I'm explaining it exactly articulately, Graham, but the idea here is stuff that you was presented in the application does still matter. And the big sort of elephant in the room is the combination of 319 31 GPA, 319 GRE, three one GPA. Now, they may well have really strong professional experience outside of work experience and various other things that help them secure the interview, but still, these numbers put them at the lower end of the spectrum for all candidates targeting London business school. So I wouldn't be shocked. Now, what they need to do as they reapply, specifically for London business School, is retake the GRE. Now they can retake the GRE, put obviously a lot of effort into doing that.
If they move the score up to, let's say, the mid 320s, absolutely fantastic. That really helps because their GPA is on the, again, also on the lower end of the spectrum. But even if they retake the GRE and only move the score up one or two points, that's going to be important as a re applicant to a program like London business school because you're signalling to the school that you made the effort and put in the graft to improve your overall profile. Because if they denied you one year, you came back the next year with a very similar profile, it's going to going to be be quite tricky. So that. Long story, long answer short, Graham, I think they really do need to tackle these numbers and the most effective way of doing that would be retaking the GRE.
[00:15:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, I think this is a classic case of. I think you're right. They probably assumed that because they got the interview that LBS was fine with their numbers and it moved on. Right. And that's not how it works. As you say, it's a holistic review after the interview as well. So, yeah, they need a better test score. I mean, that 319, if you were to put it into a GMAT scale and convert it, it's going to be well below the average for a place like LBS. And it really is that. It works in tandem with the GPA. And the european schools do focus a bit on GPA because they're a little less test obsessed than their american counterparts. And so you come in with a low GPA. If I'm the LBS admissions team, I'm saying, okay, well, give me something on the test. And they're not doing that. The test is also kind of low. Right. So, yeah, so to me, this is a kind of open shot case. They got to go retake the test. They got to get a better score, and they might even want to take business fundamentals or MBA math to help bolster the transcript issues. So, yeah, it's a challenging situation, but I think that with a little bit of time, they have time. They're not applying till the fall.
They should have the time to commit to getting this done. Now, I know there was a little bit of a private conversation that you had with this candidate where they were sort of resistant. They're worried that, oh, I'll just get another point or two on the test. But as you point out, it's like just even showing that effort can be worth a lot so that at least the school knows that you're aware this is low, you've gone out. Even if you get a point or two or even the same score, you can at least write an optional essay and explain that you tried to address this and that you have other things in your profile that you think signal your ability to excel in the program. So, anyway, that's kind of my take. It sounds like we're in agreement.
[00:17:40] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:17:42] Speaker A: One last thing on this. They have the other schools on their list. Maybe with the exception of Oxford, I would argue, all have admission standards that are equal to or even more stringent than, say, lbs when it comes to testing, gpas, et cetera. So they need to address this. Whatever the school they're going to apply to in the fall or cast a wider net. So those are their options, basically.
All right. So, yeah, thanks to that person for sharing their profile. Let's move on and talk about wiretaps. Candidate number two.
So our second candidate this week is also looking to get into school for the fall of 25. They have seven schools on their target list, and those schools are Cornell, Dartmouth, Duke, Georgetown, Oxford, University of Washington, Foster and Unc. Kenan Flagler. This person's been working in corporate banking strategy. They want to get into consulting, and they have kind of every consulting firm on the target list with Accenture and Kearney and Bain and McKinsey, etcetera. They have a GMAT score of 710, and they also have a GPA of 3.1, just like this week's first candidate. They've been working for five years. They're located in Dallas, and they want to land on the east coast. And they do mention in the notes that they're looking to apply in round one, specifically early action at Duke, which is their top choice. And then they have, I mean, a list, Alex, of pretty amazing stuff. I mean, they've been promoted three times at their current company. They've been project leader on three different initiatives.
They even explained their GPA a bit, which we said is a three one. The first two years they had health problems, but they then made the dean's list in the final two years in Undergrad, which they mentioned as a top 50 undergrad. And then outside of work, I mean, they were still, they were the recipient of a presidential service award for community service related to environmental protection. They're a state champion lacrosse coach. And so this is an active person. Lots of good things happening at work and outside of work, it sounds like. But again, test score and GPA, maybe not quite at the level of at least Duke, where they're really targeting. So what do you make of this candidacy?
[00:19:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I really like this candidate, quite honestly. I mean, I like our first candidate, but, you know, but what I like about this particular candidate is, again, like our first candidate looks like they've got good professional experience, and that's really fundamental for the admissions process. But they also have articulated some really interesting extracurricular activities and awards and stuff, and that can really resonate super well with top business programs. And then on top of all that, they're not being overly ambitious with their target programs, quite frankly. I think so, yeah. Duke, early action, that's obviously a very, very good school, but they're sort of effectively targeting some top 16, top 20 and so on and so forth. So they're being quite realistic. I would all almost argue that they might want to take a punt on an m seven, because, again, that outside of work stuff is really what's going to help separate them a little bit. Now, again, the biggest issue that they'll face is overcoming that GPA, much like our first candidate, and they can show that positive trend there, which will be helpful, but we would want to see an associated outstanding test score to further mitigate. And a 710, whilst it's probably close to the average for Duke, I don't think we know Duke's average, but it's probably close to that and certainly close to or above average for some of the other schools on their list. If there's any chance that they can eke out 20 more points, 30 more points on that test, it might pay back in bucket loads. And the reason for that is, one, it makes them more admissible, so it increases their chances of getting Duke early action or early admission, whatever it is, it would give them perhaps better opportunities at m seven if they wanted to aim a little bit higher. And thirdly, it's going to give them more access to scholarship opportunities if they do gain admissions, if they've got that stronger test score, which will potentially be an extra 50,000 or something. So the effort to retake the test would pay back in that regard. So, I mean, if this person was presented as they are, with the 700 and 3740 g Mac Graham, I'd be like, they really should be adding m seven to their target list schools.
[00:22:31] Speaker A: Yeah, it is an interesting scenario. I mean, the only thing I think about is, I think the 710 is below Duke's average and the three one definitely is. And so what I see is, as an early action candidate, I see a waitlist scenario coming if they like everything else, which sounds like, you know, the rest of this candidates profile is pretty compelling. So I could see them landing on a waitlist and then Duke just sort of waiting to see if they make a move to improve the score. So that's why, given that they have time, I would, yeah, recommend they retake the test and try to do whatever they can to boost the number up a little bit. As you say, it could have a lot of different implications and who knows? I mean, if they were to work with a tutor, get a higher score or something like, as you say, it could open up a different group of schools altogether. Right. So there's. There are a lot of possibilities.
In any event, great profile. I am rooting for this candidate and I think that they clearly know what they need to do and are taking steps and it sounds like there's some willingness on their part to work this out. I will say, in contrast to the first candidate, one of the key things that's different is, as you were pointing out, the list of schools is a bit more spread around, so they have a kind of more realistic target set. And the other thing that's interesting is that they have this really strong performance in the final two years of undergrad. So that'll help them as well.
Yeah, it's the same advice, though on some levels, is like retake the test if possible and boost the score. I do want to thank them for sharing their profile and engaging in some good dialogue with you, Alex, on the site. But let's move on and talk about wiretaps. Candidate number three, our final candidate for this week applied to UCLA, Anderson and UNC Keenan Fisher Flagler. And this is a decision wire entry, and they ended up getting admitted to both schools. They actually got into Anderson with an $80,000 scholarship and to UNC with a free ride. So full scholarship, they're going to be starting school this fall. They want to work in tech. They do indicate they have a slight preference for the east coast in terms of where they want to land post MBA. And if you're keeping score at home, they had a 760 GMAT score and a 3.5 GPA, which, Alex, that makes me wonder if they applied anywhere else, too, because with those numbers, they probably could have targeted some additional schools, even m seven stuff, and we don't know enough about them. But in any event. So they mentioned in the notes that they have this scholarship from UCLA, but the free ride from UNC. And they say that the factors they're trying to consider are prestige opportunities for recruitment, post MBA, and then future networking. And they say again, they're inclined towards the east coast, but that it's not a deal breaker in terms of their preferences and stuff. So, yeah, what do you make of this, Alex? What should they do?
[00:25:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, this is a classic case of, you know, east coast versus west coast. If they have an inclination that they want to be on the east coast, I think Keenan Flagler is a really good choice here.
Full scholarship. Their networks on the east coast are going to be stronger than Anderson's. Anderson has a terrific network, but it would be much more concentrated on the west coast in California. So this is a case of taking the full ride and potentially going to a school that's one tier lower than Anderson. But I think in their geography, it makes a lot of sense. Graham. And they'd be the sort of bigger fish in a smaller pond, the school. So maybe that gives them more access to the opportunities that the school can provide and so forth. So, yeah, I would vote for Keenan Flagler.
[00:26:12] Speaker A: Yeah, it is interesting because, I mean, I think everyone would say that UCLA is top 16 MBA program. Are they at the back end of the top 16? Yeah, I mean, we were talking earlier today about how are they similar to a Cornell or something, but it's definitely in that tier above, and we see this over and over again, where the school in the tier above gives a little less money than the school in the tier just beyond, you know, just behind it. Right. So it is interesting. The thing for me is that I think both of these schools can place this candidate into technology roles. I think their chances of being in a tech role on the east coast are stronger from UNC, whereas, you know, if they want to work in tech on the west coast, UCLA would be obviously the choice. Right. So I was saying to you also earlier today that I feel like if they knew more about the specific type of tech job that they're looking for and the companies they might target, that could help them to fine tune their decision here because they could get a sense as to where are the UNC grads at these companies and where are the UCLA grads? Just to feel this out? But I will say it's compelling. UNC, I guess the Wall Street Journal doesn't do this anymore, but they said this, they used to rank business schools, and one of the things that they used to do is they had put a tremendous amount of weight on recruiter feedback. And recruiters love UNC grads from Keenan Flagler. And I think part of that's because the way that the MBA curriculum is structured is they have these kind of majors or concentrations that are all kind of tied to specific careers. So they literally have a consulting track and a banking track, which is very different than, say, just majoring in strategy or majoring in finance or something. So I think that's why recruiters love the program, because the candidates graduate very prepared. So I feel like they could land on their feet out of a UNC and more likely land on the east coast. Right. So I'm kind of with you on this. I mean, and I'm biased, too, because I just was at UCLA and I mean, the campus is amazing and the weather's great and there are lots of amazing things about it. But in this case, the money is challenging. I mean, it's going to be a high cost of living in LA. So there are a lot of reasons where UNC might make sense. Do you think they should go back to UCLA and ask for more money?
[00:28:30] Speaker B: They could try to negotiate, but I don't think UCLA would because again, Keenan Flagler's in a lower tier. Yeah, they may not bother to, but still, I think Keenan Flagler is a way to go.
[00:28:42] Speaker A: Yeah. So, in any event, it's interesting quandary. I presume that's why you picked them out. But congratulations to this candidate for getting into both schools they applied to. And with some serious money in hand, I think they'll have a great experience at either program. So can't go wrong, as always. But in any event, thanks, Alex, for picking these out. We'll record another episode in one week's time. As I told you, I'm going to be on the road next week, roaming around New York state. I'm actually going to be in Ithaca a little bit, where Cornell is located. So who knows? Maybe we'll record an episode from there. But I will keep you posted. And, yeah, I look forward to it next week.
[00:29:19] Speaker B: Alex, very good. Best luck, everyone. Stay safe.
