Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: Welcome to the Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast. I'm your host, Graham Richmond, and this special episode is part of our continuing Admissions Director Q and A series.
Today, I am thrilled to welcome Donna Swinford, Associate Dean for Student Recruitment and Admissions at the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business. Donna has been at Chicago Booth since 1997, and she joined the Office of Admissions in 2005 and has served in several roles, including head of operations and evaluation before transitioning to her current position.
She has seen the admissions process at Booth from pretty much every angle possible over the course of her tenure. And I think it's safe to say that after more than 25 years, Donna is a bit of. Of a Booth lifer at this point. She has a degree in history and Public administration from Northern Illinois University. Welcome back to the Clear Admit Podcast, Donna. It's great to see you.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: Great. Thank you, Graham, for having me on.
[00:01:08] Speaker B: Yeah. And I didn't say this when I did your little background, but one thing that I love talking with Donna about, which we'll try not to talk about on the show today, is baseball and music.
So we have a lot of, like, fun, common interests. But I do want to give you a chance to just tell our listeners a little bit about your. Your background and the path that led you to this current role, because, again, you've had this really great tenure with Booth, and you've seen a lot of different elements of the program. So I'd love to hear just a little bit about it.
[00:01:34] Speaker A: Yeah, it's kind of amazing when I sit back and think that I've been at booth for almost 29 years.
And I'll admit that when I talk with prospective students, which is one of my favorite parts of my role, they will look at my LinkedIn and they always ask me what has kept me at Booth for so long and how did I get here?
And I think it was kind of a. It just kind of was not an intentional step, but it just kind of happened upon that where I saw a job in a Chicago Tribune newspaper for an admissions or a help desk manager applied for it back when you used to have to do that, send your resume in the mail, and have been here ever since.
[00:02:20] Speaker B: Yeah, it's amazing. And I think what's also kind of interesting, and we have never really talked about this, but you've also. I mean, the school was not called Chicago Booth at the time. It was just the University of Chicago's MBA program. And then the big donation from Booth and a new building. I mean, you've seen so many cool things happen over the years that you've been there.
[00:02:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I've worked under four deans, and we were, you know, we were Chicago GSB back when I started.
And in 2008, David Booth then gave us the gift, and we then named the school in his honor. We've been in our building, we still call the new building, for 22 years.
So, yeah, it's lots of different changes.
[00:02:59] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. So what initially drew you to admissions work? Because I know you joined the university, but I think you did some other stuff before you got specifically into Admissions. Right. And so what kind of drew you to admissions itself, and what. What still keeps you excited about it?
[00:03:14] Speaker A: Yeah, so I started at Booth and Career Services as a help desk kind of IT manager.
[00:03:20] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:03:21] Speaker A: Moved to Career Services, was a project manager, building the systems that we used across the school. And then I moved into Admissions to kind of manage the technology and the operations for admissions. And so I got into Admissions because I really love just fixing problems, and I love being able to connect the dots and make sure that workflows work correctly and that they are very concise and that they logical, and that I was given opportunities by the people that I reported to to take on additional responsibilities, to actually start reading applications, to start traveling for Booth. And it all just kind of fit together.
And that if your systems don't work, then you can't really read correctly. If you can't read correctly, you can't really recruit. And so they're all. They all work together.
And I. I know I've said this probably to you in passing before. One of the things that I really love about admissions, because I love puzzles, I love challenges, and I think that admissions is a big puzzle that I'm bringing together all these different applications, these different people who are all these individuals.
And the first day of class, I get to participate, present a completed puzzle to the school of the new class, and then I get to do it all over again. It's like I wipe out that puzzle, and I get a brand new slate. I think that newness every year is something that I find very interesting.
[00:04:49] Speaker B: Yeah, and you make a great point. It is a new puzzle each year. And in fact, you know, the class that you would have been working to help admit in 2005 is really different than the one that you're bringing in today in terms of the types of jobs people have. And, I mean, obviously there's some similarities, I'm sure, but it's just so fasc hear what people are doing in the world because it has changed with time.
[00:05:09] Speaker A: Very much so. Where I think the value of the MBA has spanned a lot of different industries that you didn't necessarily see interest in 2005, and that you see people who are interested in energy and healthcare and the nonprofits and those industries have seen the talent of the MBA help these organizations find success, and that it's been very interesting to see how the pool has changed in the interest of the MDBA candidate has also evolved.
[00:05:46] Speaker B: Yeah. And we've seen that, too, with people who come to Clear Admits website. The range of interest has gradually been expanding. I have to ask you. So you talk about loving putting together this puzzle, all these different folks that you're bringing together. I think candidates, when they look at the admissions process, they think of it as, like, you know, there's kind of a door that they're knocking on, trying to get in, and that the admissions team's job is to hold the door and only let certain people in kind of thing. So what, like, what's a misconception that you think applicants have about either admissions officers as readers of their file or just the process in general?
[00:06:19] Speaker A: I think probably the biggest misconception is that there's a secret formula and that there's a. That we just put your applications through. Through a machine and that we could spit out who we're going to admit.
It would be so easy if that was true. But it's not true. It's more of that art than a science.
And it's because we're not admitting applications, we're admitting people. And people are more than what they are just providing to us and their stats and their resume and their essays. And so we want to get to know each candidate so that we can ensure that they will find success. Success at Booth, and that they will be successful not in the classroom, but in all their aspirations.
[00:07:01] Speaker B: Yeah. So I. I guess one thing I'm wondering about as you. As, you know, as you talk about this is how has your thinking about admissions changed over the years? So, you know, we talked about 2005. Now it's, you know, 2026. Like, has anything changed in terms of the way you look at a file or, you know, because obviously candidates are probably doing things a little differently than they used to. And I know your application process has changed a bit.
[00:07:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think it's probably similar to a lot of other industries, how they've evolved in the last 20 plus years. We used to save paper applications, we would have to do data entry.
Now the students do all the data entry when they submit their applications.
And we have a lot more data that we can use.
Back 21 years ago, people would fill out a form and we would mail them a hundred plus viewbook with all the information about the school that they would then read and be able to learn about how the school could be beneficial to them. But now that's all on the web and it's not even just on the web now we have to be aware of what is on our social media accounts. Who within our students are posting about us, Clear admit what they're posting about us. So there's a lot more resources for the candidates. So how do we ensure that those resources have the correct information that they're up to date as opposed to just this hundred page view book that we would print 10,000 copies of and then mail them through a mailing center?
[00:08:37] Speaker B: Yeah, it is really fascinating and I think on some levels, like the people's access to information is greatly improved. But I think schools ability to control the messaging is, you know, less. It's sort of a little bit less controlled than it was before. Right. Because the viewbook was the only source of information.
But yeah, that's really fascinating a way to kind of look at it, I guess. Can you think of anything that applicants tend to worry about more than they should? When you. When you think about the process, I
[00:09:04] Speaker A: think that I've seen applicants overthink the essays that we ask.
Like I think that essays. Well, this year we actually pretty much got rid of essays at Booth this year. But I think that essays. People are very concerned about word choice and about having the perfect essay when it should just be answering the question instead of overthinking.
I know that even when my children, when they were applying to college, they were overstressed about the essays as opposed to just trying to make sure that they are conveying who they are to the admissions committee of the schools they were applying.
[00:09:46] Speaker B: Since you brought this up, I do have to ask you. So you guys now have. I know we just did an event with Clear, Clear admit, a kind of a webinar where we talked. I think it was with Nicole on your team. But you know, there's this been the shift away. So you guys have eliminated the kind of formal essays. I think there might be some short answer questions. Is that right? There's like three or four questions. Right. And I just wonder what led you to sort of make that decision.
[00:10:09] Speaker A: I think we made this decision because we found that the essays weren't necessarily getting us what we Wanted anymore. Because I think the candidates were overthinking it. They were using external AI and where we just really want to know the answer.
And so we now have four prompts, each 300 characters each, each.
And two of the questions. One is, what is your short term career goal? Second question is, what's your long term career goal?
And I was on the road last week hosting a couple admissions sessions. And the candidates were very concerned about how they convey and answer these.
And one of the candidates, I said, well, what do you want to do? They said, well, I want to transition into commission consulting in this sector. I said, that's your answer. Don't overthink it. Don't put in all the fluff words. We just really want to know one or two sentences in each of those essays or one and those short answers so that you can let the admissions committee know what you're thinking.
[00:11:17] Speaker B: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think, remind me, is that there's an interview process. Is there any video component to your application as well?
[00:11:23] Speaker A: There is. So what we did, instead of having the written essay in the past, have had a video essay where you would answer a question. You would have 60 seconds, you would have a couple weeks to record it. But now we're doing a video simulation where you will get a prompt. You will have four prompts that you will have to answer in real time as opposed to recording them at your leisure.
And we will make sure that each candidate has enough time, time to practice. Because this could be something that could be new to individuals, but it's something that we also seen that MBA employers are moving towards similar types of screening. So we wanted to give something that you'll be seeing in the near future with some of the things when you're going through the recruiting process at the MBA level.
[00:12:16] Speaker B: Yeah, that seems really smart, you know, just to sort of mimic what they're going to experience.
And, yeah, it sounds like, I mean, you're, you know, Chicago Booth is not alone in doing some of these things in terms of, like, you know, having these video exercises that don't allow for a lot of preparation. And I assume that's, you know, again, this idea of getting at the authentic candidate as opposed to, like you said, really well with the. The kind of fluff and, like, obsessing over the word choices. You just want the answer. I gotta ask you, though, when you think about all the students that you've admitted over the years, what are the qualities that tend to distinguish those who really thrive and get a lot out of the mba. So, you know, we're not talking about what kind of test score gets someone into a school or something. This is the ones when they get there, really are in their element and get a ton out of the program and, you know, give a lot back to it as well.
[00:13:04] Speaker A: I think that resilience is something that we tend to hear a lot. Humble and I think very curious are probably three different adjectives I would use to describe Booth students who have found success.
[00:13:19] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:13:20] Speaker A: And I think resilience, I think that it's important to know that not everyone is going to get their dream job the day they graduate. And that having a plan B is not failure. It just means that you're pivoting in a different role. And that that's, I think comes with this maturity and self awareness that, that you will understand that your career is a career is not the one job that you're getting post mba. And that's, I think, important that you're not going to get every class you want, you're not going to get every club leadership role that you're going to get. And so if you're okay with that and that resilience and then humble, I think that that's something that you see just at Chicago. I think we're in the middle of the United, you know, the U.S. where you kind of have that Midwest humbleness. But it's something that we tend to see in a lot of our candidates.
And then lastly, the curiosity.
We are a school that is known for our academics and wanting to make sure that students understand that they are going to truly be transformed in the classroom and have that curiosity to challenge themselves, to want to take in that knowledge, process it and really trying to have an opportunity to learn at every step of the MBA along the their two years in the full time program.
[00:14:48] Speaker B: And I do remember, you may, you may remember this. Well, in fact, you must. Somebody once gave me a T shirt. Someone on, I think on your team or maybe in marketing at Booth. They gave me a T shirt that was a picture of like a piece of paper on the ground. And there was a voice or a kind of bubble that said who left their Nobel Prize in the courtyard? And it was the Chicago booth because there's so many Nobel prize winning academics there. But so obviously curiosity seems like it's a pretty vital, you know, kind of ingredient to that, right?
[00:15:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I think again, what I hear from a lot of our alumni is that when they reflect back on their experience at Booth, they will reflect back on a certain Class experience, classroom experience. Because there are things that they learn in the classroom that they continue to use every day professionally as well as personally, and that they, that they have just this thirst for knowledge that they take through the experience as well as post mba.
[00:15:52] Speaker B: So you've had a chance to obviously connect with alumni over the years. Whether it's when you're on the road, you know, traveling for the school, or obviously when they come back to campus for reunions and things, what is something that they tell you that they didn't fully appreciate while they were students? And I know you were speaking just before about, you know, they obviously the classroom experience seems to leave a lasting impression, but are there other things that they kind of look back and, you know, think about with regards to their time at Booth?
[00:16:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I think our alumni, they appreciate the network that they created, that the again, the classroom experience, they think fondly on different opportunities, just engage with their classmates. But what I've also heard is that in hindsight that some of the alumni have mentioned that they wish that they wouldn't had focused so much on their first job and what they would have all the effort, all the coffee chats and all of the effort for that first job. Because the reality is that's just one role that they will have within their career that inspires instead to take advantage of the entire experience to look at it that the job that I get post MBA immediately is the first step of my post MBA career.
And so how do you build upon what you do first and be able to leverage that and think about your career in the different pivots that you will be able to take based on what you learned at the mba. It's just not one and done.
Like you're not going to fail the MBA experience, not getting your dream job post mba because you have this wonderful opportunity to have a lifelong career based on what you gained, the network and the experience that you gained at the MBA program?
[00:17:38] Speaker B: Yeah, and I, you know, I think I maybe mentioned this to you when we were chatting not too long ago that, you know, I recently went to my 25th reunion for the business school that I graduated from. And it was so funny how the number of jobs that people have had, you know, Even in that 20, I mean, people move jobs. And it's so funny because there was this, like you were saying everyone was very focused when we were students about, oh, where are you going? What's, what's that job you've got? But now none of them, I, literally none of them, I think, are at that job that they had when they graduated. It's just so rare for someone, you know, obviously. Yeah. So. So I think you're making a great point that it's, It's. That's just sort of a first step. And for some reason, people sometimes over index on it.
[00:18:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And so many years ago, when I started admissions, I had a student who stood up at an information session, and he said something I actually refer to a lot. And he said that when you're an MBA student, you could be successful at five different things. You could be successful in the classroom, you could be doing really well academically, you could be successful on the career front, get your dream job, have as many coffee chats that you will take on. You could be successful in leadership roles, taking on leadership roles within the clubs and such, could be successful socially. You know, that you are having a lot of fun. You're going on all these yacht trips and skiing and such. And that lastly, you could be successful because you still have a family, you still have an outside the NBA world.
[00:19:05] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:19:06] Speaker A: So.
And then he refers to that if you're successful at one of those, you're doing really well, that you are rocking the MBA experience. We're doing successful at two, exceeding expectations. If you're successful at three of those, you're lying because of just how you are prioritizing your time as a student.
And that it's. And that's also something I think that leans into why students or alumni will refer back to not wanting or wishing that they had not spent so much time on the career side because they may have missed out on leadership opportunities, on the social aspects of the mba, that there's a lot of things that are part of the experience.
[00:19:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. That's a great anecdote. I'm glad you shared that. Give me a stereotype about Chicago Booth, that you'd like to debunk.
[00:19:53] Speaker A: Oh, that we are a commuter school. Oh, wow. I think that that is one that we hear a lot. And I think it's because the students don't physically live on the UChicago camp campus, that they live in the downtown area of the city of Chicago, which is about six miles or 10 kilometers away.
And that our students feel very strongly that they have a strong community, but that their community might look differently than someone who is living all in the same building, walking to campus. And so instead, our students are living in the same buildings and taking the train to campus and enjoying the city of Chicago as their playground as opposed to just what is on campus.
[00:20:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And I Actually, you know this, but I've done that little commute because I've stayed in downtown Chicago and had headed down to the campus and it's a really easy commute. But also I think there are a lot of business schools where the MBA students pick a neighborhood, usually a really fun neighborhood in the city, and they kind of settle there and then they kind of make their way to the campus when they need to go to class.
So not uncommon, especially for urban, you know, kind of universities. So. But that's a great. I'm glad that you spoke to that. Speaking of all of this though, what role does Chicago or the Chicagoland kind of region play in the student experience at Booth?
[00:21:18] Speaker A: Well, I think first of all, the city of Chicago is an incredible location where we have lots of corporate headquarters, lots of companies that have, have a footprint within the city.
So a lot of the companies and industries that MBA students are interested in will have a presence in the city.
There's just the. Where we are physically located in the US we have two great airports and we are a four hour trip to the west coast and a two hour trip to the East Coast. So we're centrally located for people who are looking for recruiting for different roles the across. Across the area.
And then I also think that I also know because we have certain classes, we have certain lab classes like our private equity class or our VC class that allow students to get, you know, experiential learning opportunities and working in a PE firm within the city or a VC firm, so they are able to take advantage of the city in a way that they get exposure and also insights into different careers that they may be pursuing.
[00:22:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Obviously Chicago being one of the largest cities in the U.S. as you say, so many headquarters there and I think virtually every major company will have a presence, as you say, so lots of opportunities there.
I know you're busy. I wondered if you'd stick around a few extra minutes. We do these lightning round questions which allow our listeners just to get to know you a little bit better. So we'll just do them rapid fire if you're willing. Yeah, These are usually just fun though. So no, no pressure.
[00:22:53] Speaker A: Okay. All right.
[00:22:54] Speaker B: All right, so the first one is coffee or tea?
[00:22:57] Speaker A: Tea.
[00:22:57] Speaker B: Okay. This is interesting because we're. Now I'm keeping a little tally in my head as I do these with all the admissions directors and I, you know, coffee was winning big time when I started recording these. And now Tea is making a little bit of a rally here. So we'll see.
[00:23:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:10] Speaker B: All right. Beach or mountains?
[00:23:11] Speaker A: Urban?
No, I would have to say probably mountains.
[00:23:16] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:23:17] Speaker A: Mountains.
[00:23:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. Morning person or night owl?
[00:23:20] Speaker A: I am a night owl.
[00:23:21] Speaker B: Okay. Excellent. Good for seeing live music.
[00:23:24] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:23:25] Speaker B: What is a pet peeve that you have?
[00:23:27] Speaker A: Being late.
[00:23:28] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:23:28] Speaker A: Like even me being late.
[00:23:31] Speaker B: I'm glad I was on time for our recording today.
What's a favorite comfort food.
[00:23:37] Speaker A: I think right now it's ice cream.
[00:23:38] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. Good summer choice.
What about a guilty pleasure that you
[00:23:43] Speaker A: have that I will always have my nails manicured.
[00:23:46] Speaker B: Oh, wow, that's funny. What about the best advice that you've ever received? I recognize this is a very weighty question nestled amongst a lot of silly questions, but what is the best advice you've ever received?
[00:23:55] Speaker A: To not take myself so seriously.
[00:23:58] Speaker B: Okay.
What is one thing that applicants should stop doing immediately?
[00:24:03] Speaker A: Stressing out about the process.
Just go with the flow.
[00:24:08] Speaker B: Okay.
And then the best thing that you've read or watched or listened to recently.
[00:24:14] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
I will tell you that I was a little burnt out from reading applications, so I haven't really read anything other than maybe trashy books, you know, like non thinking books. But I'm also in the middle of House of the Dragon.
[00:24:32] Speaker B: Oh, okay.
[00:24:33] Speaker A: I'm one episode behind, but yes. So we're watching that.
[00:24:36] Speaker B: That's fun. Excellent. All right, so. And the other thing I was just going to say is I know you and I have, you've given me some great music recommendations over the years. I don't know if there's anything you want to share on the listening side, but I think.
[00:24:47] Speaker A: Well, the last one I think I mentioned to you is Wolf Alice.
[00:24:50] Speaker B: Oh, yes.
[00:24:51] Speaker A: So they just played at Lollapalooza here in Chicago this past weekend. I didn't get to see them, but I think they're also touring with someone this year. But I continue to look to see when they will be touring solo so I can see them.
[00:25:05] Speaker B: Yeah, and you make a good point also about you're reminding me that Chicago is a great city to see live music, a lot of venues and. Yeah, always, always something on offer. Don, I really appreciate you making time to do this. Thanks for, you know, all these really helpful responses and shedding some light on the admissions process, but also just your experience over the years working at Booth and. Yeah. Just really appreciate you taking the time today.
[00:25:28] Speaker A: Well, and again, thank you, Graham, for having me. It's always a pleasure chatting with you.
[00:25:32] Speaker B: All right. Appreciate it. That's going to do it for this episode of the show. Thanks for tuning in to the clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast. And please remember to subscribe, rate and review the show wherever you listen. We'll be back with more of these admissions Q&As all summer long, as well as our regular weekly episodes airing on Mondays.
Sam.
