Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Welcome to the Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast. I'm your host, Graham Richmond, and this special episode is part of our Admissions Director Q and A series. Today I'm excited to welcome Donna Levinson, who from MIT's Sloan School of Management. Donna's title is Assistant Dean of Admissions, and as the leader of the admissions team, she holds full responsibility for all recruiting, evaluation, conversion, and marketing activities in support of the mba, The Sloan Fellows mba, Master of Finance, Master of Business analytics, and Master of Science and Management Studies programs. She also may talk with us a bit today, if we're lucky, about a newer program offering from Sloan. So stay tuned for that. In total, Donna has been with MIT Sloan Admissions for more than 14 years, and even before joining Sloan full time, she worked closely with the admissions team, reading applications as early as 2007. It should go without saying that she brings a wealth of admissions and recruiting experience to the table. Prior to mit, Donna was also a partner at Accenture, where she spent 18 years. She holds undergraduate and graduate degrees in Management Science from mit. Welcome, Donna. It's great to catch you today.
[00:01:25] Speaker B: Oh, thank you, Graham. Thank you so much for inviting me to join you.
[00:01:28] Speaker A: Yeah, and as I said earlier before we came on air here, we did this quite some time ago, but I hadn't. I have not seen the years fly by since we last made one of these, so I just. It's always great to get time with you. You just have such a great amount of experience in our space. So I cannot wait to get into the discussion today. I thought we could start with a pretty standard question that we've been asking all the admissions directors as they come onto the show, and that is just to tell us a little bit about your background and the path that led you to this current role.
[00:01:56] Speaker B: Okay. Well, you actually provided quite a bit of it in your introduction. So, as you mentioned, I'm an alum. I did my undergrad and my master's at MIT, and then I spent 18 years with a firm that's now known as Accenture. It was actually the consulting division of Arthur Anderson, and then Anderson Consulting when I joined. And then at the tail end of my career, it was accenture. And after 18 years, I decided I wanted to do something different.
I love being on a college campus. I thought, wouldn't it be great to go back to my alma mater, become a more engaged alum, and somehow get involved? I felt that through my consulting work, I had developed pretty solid project management skills and thought that there most likely was a need there. And as it turned Out I didn't know quite much about. It's kind of funny, I really didn't know much about sort of how a university worked at all. So I applied for many, many jobs. Many as some people will attest, you know or relate to this. Didn't hear back from most, but one day did in fact get a call from Sloan Admission saying you actually applied for a job where you're printing applications because at that time people were applying online but all of the reading and assessment and evaluation was being done offline and so you needed somebody to print these applications.
And she said to me, I'm not sure that's quite what you're looking for, but we have a, a core group of people who read MBA applications and assess them. And that's where it all began. I loved doing it. I recognized very quickly that Sloan is really where I wanted to be anywhere in the MIT ecosystem. That's where it was. I did that for four and a half years while actually doing a slightly different job at MIT that I will spare you the details. And then as you mentioned, ended up with a full time opportunity at Sloan in 2012.
First focused on our Master of Finance, then I became the director of admissions.
2018 I became the co Assistant Dean with Rod Garcia, who I think many people are still familiar with. And then he retired very deservedly after 30 odd years in 2021. And so I've had the unbelievable opportunity to lead this team for the past five years on my own.
[00:04:04] Speaker A: Got it. Yeah. So you've kind of, it's a perfect segue into the second question I had because I get this sense that what initially drew you to this work was that reading experience and the kind of evaluation piece. But tell me a little bit about what sort of still keeps you excited because now we're, you know, we were talking before we started recording and you, you know, you've been reading files for many, many years now and in your current role for five. So what keeps you excited about this?
[00:04:29] Speaker B: So MIT and MIT Sloan are really very special place and for me and very much mission driven, MIT was founded on the principles of mind and hand and really people learning concepts but that immediately applying them to make this world a better place.
And MIT Sloan is clearly aligned with that mission. This is a mission that really, really resonates with me personally. And for me to be able to play some small role in all of that gives me a great sense of purpose.
In addition, the opportunity to make that call and to potentially change the trajectory of somebody's life.
It's Invaluable.
[00:05:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like you and I share that, that moment even, you know, with Clear Admit, we encounter a lot of candidates on our website or some, you know, we talk about on the show like it is. It is amazing to see how an MBA or any kind of GME degree can really reshape someone's trajectory. So one thing I have to ask you is what do you think is a misconception that applicants tend to have about admissions officers or even just the process?
[00:05:34] Speaker B: Nope. I love that question.
So I love 98% of my job. One of the things I'm not crazy about is in fact that at times we're called the gatekeepers. That's a pretty common term that's out there. And what that implies is we try to keep people out of our programs. And I think that's a huge misconception. We are here really to advise and to support people throughout the process in a variety of ways. Through formal info sessions that we have, through. Through smaller group chats, through having office hours. We have office hours. You can show up anytime you want and meet with somebody in our team to advise you and to answer your specific questions. And I really, really think that that is in fact a misconception. And I welcome the opportunity to be able to sort of debunk that.
[00:06:22] Speaker A: And, you know, that's kind of why we do this series. And also we have a written component to this series on the website, but it's about just trying to make sure candidates understand that you guys are regular people and that you don't exist to kind of keep them out. But it's more likely the case that you trying to let them in. You know, you really are rooting for folks who apply. So I have to ask you though, like, how has your thinking changed about admissions over the years? Because as you said, you know, what did you say 20 plus years now of being in this domain, at least as a reader, has your thinking changed at all?
[00:06:53] Speaker B: So I'm going to say a little bit, yes. And what I'm about to say may sound like a bit of a surprise, but what I've come to realize, and you know, this was, you know, not yesterday, but over the course of the process, is that it's really important to admit people who we firmly believe have demonstrated the ability to be successful in a classroom, and we're not doing anybody any favors by perhaps giving people too much of the benefit of the doubt and putting them in a situation where they are not positioned to do well and succeed. It is not Good for them, not good for their classmates. It's not good for our faculty. And so, you know, to say it slightly differently, if we admit somebody, they then interpret that we think they would be successful. And I understand why they would think that. And so, therefore, sometimes there's really really hard decisions to be made. Somebody who really, really, really wants to attend our program or somebody else's program. And yet their application and, you know, the interactions with them are really lacking the evidence of demonstrated ability. And this is in a variety of race. I'm not talking about strictly undergraduate. G promise you, I am not. We look for this evidence in a variety of places, whether it be your GPA and. Or the tests that you standardized tests and. Or the work that you are doing and. Or additional courses you may have taken. There's many, many ways to demonstrate this. But even for the individual who is so desperate to join your program, and yet we question their ability to be successful in the classroom, the right answer is, in fact, not to admit them. And that's something that I actually truly learned over my early years doing this.
[00:08:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And I just thinking back to my own time in an MBA program, like, the pace is fast, especially that I feel like that first, you know, first semester or even the first year where there's so much kind of, you know, a lot of quantitative coursework, at least in most of these programs. And so, yeah, the ability to kind of hit the ground running is important. Yeah, I hear you. What's something that applicants tend to worry about far more than they should?
[00:08:58] Speaker B: Okay, I'm going to give you a general answer, and then if it's okay, can I give you one specific to our application?
[00:09:03] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
[00:09:04] Speaker B: Yeah. So the general one is, again, something that I just touched about upon, which is, in fact, your undergraduate gpa. The reality of it is you cannot change it. It is what it is. What you can potentially do is offset it or supplement it with if, in fact, it might be lower than you would like it to have been. If you don't believe it actually represents your abilities, there's a whole variety of reasons why perhaps for you, you feel it might be one of the weaker parts of your application. Okay, fine. It is what it is.
Now let's provide us with additional information to offset it. Yeah, and I would say so. People spend so much time worrying about their undergraduate gpa, that's not anything you can change.
Use the energy to do some of these other things.
[00:09:52] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:09:53] Speaker B: The other one that is more specific is, in fact, the org chart that we ask for. In our application, the org chart is meant to be just a visual representation of really your current role and who, if you have direct reports, if you don't, that's fine. Who your peers might be, who your supervisor is. Just to give a bit of a context in terms of what your role is. We have come to learn that people spend an inordinate amount of time actually thinking about and working on their org charts. And now what I have come to say, and so I'm going to say it here, is very clearly, we have never not admitted somebody simply on the basis of the org chart they submitted.
[00:10:33] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah.
[00:10:34] Speaker B: So hopefully that helps put a little bit of perspective, even, even maybe a little bit of a time constraint around just how much time you should spend on it.
[00:10:41] Speaker A: Okay. And I understand why you're asking that. It's probably a useful just way to get, as you say, a general lay of the land.
[00:10:47] Speaker B: Very useful.
[00:10:48] Speaker A: Yeah. People come from so many different types of companies too, and roles so.
[00:10:53] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:10:54] Speaker A: So looking back over students that you've admitted over the years, what qualities tend to distinguish those who make the most of the opportunities available during the mba?
[00:11:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say first and foremost it's people who truly show initiative and are self starters. In any school there's just a wealth of opportunities available, whether it be courses or getting involved in clubs or competitions. There's just so much and it's actually very easy to do none of it. And so I think the reality is people who see the value in these different types of activities, who take the initiative to really get involved and engaged, are going to end up having a much more valuable experience.
I would also argue though, and maybe this goes in partner with what I just said, people who are okay and are actually looking forward to getting outside their comfort zones, trying new and different things, maybe even realizing that you're not good at something or failing at it, that's okay. This is really for the traditional two year mba, two year opportunity to really explore, try new and different things. One of them, to me, this might be a little bit of a tangent. One of the most valuable summer internships is the one that you didn't like.
[00:12:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:10] Speaker B: Because you've tried.
Was on your list to say, oh, I'm curious what, you know, whatever this field might be like, you try it, you realize it doesn't work for you, it doesn't align with what your strengths are or what your interests are. Boom, you've checked it off your list in a much easier way than going and interviewing for a job, getting that job and then realizing that that job isn't the right thing for you.
[00:12:32] Speaker A: Yeah, that's super important. You know, you do quite a bit of travel for the university.
You're interacting with alums in different cities around the world, and obviously you're spending time on campus where sometimes alums probably pop back in for a visit. And I'm kind of wondering what is something that they tell you that they, you know, that they didn't fully appreciate when they were students but that with hindsight, they really value.
[00:12:53] Speaker B: I'm going to say I thought a little bit about this question, so I think it's actually the opportunities that they had to engage with really incredible faculty who are leaders and experts in their fields. And I hesitated to say that because I think they actually appreciate it to a certain level while they're pursuing their mba, don't get me wrong. But then when they go off and they're working and they come up with like a work related problem and they're like, oh, I wonder what professor so and so would have said or done. I think that's like, oh, wouldn't it be great to be able to just sort of pop into his or her office? Now the reality is for our faculty, and I would assume for, you know, many other schools, they tend to develop and actually maintain relationships with, with candidates, with students, and then, you know, eventually with alums and at times are more than willing to jump in. But there's that little extra step that while you're here and while you're surrounded by the faculty, you might take for granted a little bit.
[00:13:52] Speaker A: What do you think about when prospective candidates want to get the flavor of the faculty?
I guess they could come to campus and sit in on a course. But do candidates ever kind of interact with faculty beyond that before they apply or. I know sometimes candidates try to kind of wondering if that's like advisable or not or.
[00:14:13] Speaker B: So what I'm going to say is that many, if not all of our faculty have very public web pages with email addresses on them. And some people choose to see that as a sign of, you know, willing to get emails from people outside of the community.
I'm not going to discourage people, but I'm also probably not going to encourage either simply because these are people who have an awful lot going on.
[00:14:40] Speaker A: Right. Yeah, that makes sense.
I love this question. Give us one stereotype about your MBA program that you would love to debunk.
[00:14:48] Speaker B: This is an easy one. This is. You do not have to be an engineer to get into MIT Sloan, and to have an amazing experience.
We have individuals from a wealth of backgrounds.
[00:15:02] Speaker A: Yeah. And actually say something about. So I remember we had a conversation at some point. I can't even remember on which continent it was, but I remember we talked at some point about finance. And, and, and just say a little bit about finance at MIT Sloan because I feel like people often overlook some of these, you know, real strengths. So just, I don't know if you could say a few words about that.
[00:15:20] Speaker B: We have an incredible finance ecosystem and that includes finance faculty who again, are leaders in their particular areas. It includes clubs in a. You know, finance is actually a very broad umbrella. And so, you know, we have clubs that focus on everything from traditional investment banking to private equity and to venture capital to fintech to impact investing, you name it. And associated with that are classes are conferences that are, that are very much student led but are very well recognized in the industry.
To me, it's like you buy a home and then when you get the home and the first time you're in the backyard, you realize there's a swimming pool.
It's like, wow, that's amazing. And how much am I now going to take advantage of that? And we find that many students in fact do just that. They take real advantage of everything that we have to offer from a finance standpoint.
[00:16:17] Speaker A: Yeah. All right, makes sense. So this question is a pretty broad one and I'm hoping you'll have some. There's probably a lot you could say here, but what role does your city, region or even the broader community play in the student experience at MIT Sloan?
[00:16:32] Speaker B: Yeah, so it's, it's quite a bit, you know, one area is definitely around innovation. Kendall Square, where MIT and MIT Sloan are based, are really is. Kendall Square is an innovation hub. Lots of different companies and different incubators are based in the Kendall Square area and engage with us on a regular basis. We also have an incredible healthcare ecosystem throughout the greater Boston area with hospitals and medical schools and research facilities. And our students and faculty are very engaged with them as well. Now your questioning is like, what does this engagement look like? It comes in a variety of formats. It could be somebody from one of these companies coming and giving a guest lecture. It could be students doing projects for some of these companies. It could be summer internships. It could eventually be employment with these companies. So the engagement itself takes on lots of different forms and it's something that both sides value. MIT and MIT Sloan and our students as well as the companies themselves.
Now something you sort of hinted to this earlier. We just announced Last week, the launch of our evening mba, which is targeting a very similar population. People with who have on average five years of working experience and who, for whatever reason, don't have the desire or interest to step out of the workforce, but to continue working while pursuing an mba.
The format is two evenings per week in person on campus. It'll run for roughly 22 months, so it'll include some of the periods where we don't necessarily have other classes, like January as well as in the summer. It'll be taught by the same faculty who teach the classes for the traditional mba.
It is being designed with a cohort model in mind so you're not just picking and choosing classes and coming and going together as a group. You will navigate through this program and build really meaningful relationships, both on a professional as well as a personal level.
And the current thought is courses like our projects, our action learning labs, will actually rely on the greater Boston area and the companies from which many of our students are coming from to provide the project opportunities. We are very excited about this. The application has gone live. It went live last week. We're hosting a ton of virtual events. We'll also be talking about it at all of our other events that we've planned around the traditional MBA throughout the country.
We will have four application deadlines. The first one is in early November.
And so, you know, if this is something that interests you, please connect with us. We're more than happy. And me and I, you know, I'm one of the people to talk more about it with anybody who might be interested.
[00:19:29] Speaker A: Wow. It's exciting. And is the application process going to be similar?
[00:19:33] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:19:33] Speaker A: So you said the app just went live. I mean, in terms of, you know, whatever, you know, requirements and. Yeah.
[00:19:38] Speaker B: So the application is virtually identical to the two year application.
[00:19:43] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:19:44] Speaker B: For the most part, an individual who is accepted will look very similar in either one of the two options. The difference is that if you're matriculating in the evening mba, the expectation is that you are working full time.
[00:20:01] Speaker A: Okay. And I guess in theory are probably somewhere not too far from MIT Sloan. I mean, in terms of geographically or
[00:20:09] Speaker B: so we've heard a variety of things. We've actually heard from some companies who have many offices that, you know, an option might be for somebody to transfer to the Boston office for a few years.
[00:20:17] Speaker A: Oh, okay. Yeah.
[00:20:19] Speaker B: And work locally while pursuing the degree.
[00:20:22] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:20:22] Speaker B: You know, we are sort of expanding our reach. We know there are still companies where people are working remotely for a significant amount of percentage of their time. So maybe they also take the opportunity to move to the Boston area, continue to work remotely, almost a reverse commute, and go back to their company, you know, once a month or however is required.
So.
[00:20:43] Speaker A: Okay, so lots of options, right?
[00:20:45] Speaker B: There are lots of options. The key is you need to be able to be on campus two nights a week.
[00:20:50] Speaker A: Okay, got it. So, yeah, this is all really exciting, and I know it sounds like the portfolio that you're managing is larger and larger by the year here, but obviously you've got a great team under you too. Helping. I wanted to have you stay on and do a couple of what we call our lightning round questions. And these are just fun, no pressure, kind of fun questions to let our listenership get to know you.
[00:21:13] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:21:13] Speaker A: And to realize that you're not just a gatekeeper, that you're a regular person.
All right, so first one is coffee or tea?
[00:21:20] Speaker B: Coffee.
[00:21:21] Speaker A: All right.
[00:21:22] Speaker B: It's an easy one.
[00:21:23] Speaker A: Beach or mountains? I feel like I know the answer.
[00:21:26] Speaker B: Beach.
[00:21:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Because we just talked about that.
All right, so morning person or night owl?
[00:21:32] Speaker B: Morning.
[00:21:33] Speaker A: Okay.
What's a pet peeve that you have
[00:21:36] Speaker B: people who take advantage of someone's generosity or of a given situation. That really drives me crazy. And it's the fastest way, actually, to erode any kind of trust.
[00:21:45] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense.
A comfort food.
[00:21:48] Speaker B: Noodle soup. Any kind. I chose that very carefully because there's lots and lots and lots of different types of noodle soups, and I love them all.
[00:21:57] Speaker A: Awesome. All right. How about a guilty pleasure?
[00:22:00] Speaker B: I love being sitting on the beach from 4 to 7 at night.
[00:22:04] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:22:04] Speaker B: Perfect time of day to just lay on the. Sit on the beach. Yeah.
[00:22:07] Speaker A: The golden hour.
[00:22:08] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:22:09] Speaker A: What's the best advice you've ever received?
[00:22:11] Speaker B: Just be myself. Trust in myself. And this is also advice that I give to most applicants.
[00:22:17] Speaker A: Yeah. That's. You know, it's funny. We've been hearing that we do our kind of workshops and webinars and things with candidates over the course of the summer with. With different admissions directors and. Yeah. That there seems to be a yearning for authenticity in a world that is increasingly filled with AI generated stuff. So being yourself seems like great advice. What's one thing that applicants should stop doing immediately?
[00:22:40] Speaker B: Doubting themselves.
[00:22:42] Speaker A: Okay. And what is the best thing that you've either read, watched, or listened to recently?
[00:22:48] Speaker B: Well, you know, I thought about that for a second. Then, like, oh, my gosh, how could I say anything but the World Cup.
[00:22:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:53] Speaker B: And in particular, yesterday's World cup finals.
[00:22:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:56] Speaker B: I mean, not spending a whole lot of time in my life. Ever watching a soccer match.
Right. It's a match, not a game.
I found it fascinating for a whole variety of reasons, including there was this fascinating story on the news yesterday morning about the pitch and the science behind creating the perfect pitch, which was amazing.
[00:23:21] Speaker A: Yeah. And apparently, people. I feel like I read something about how the pitch in the final stadium in New York was not, like, the best one, the ones that they were using in the U.S. so, yeah, people are very particular.
[00:23:33] Speaker B: Yeah. A partnership that a university in the States did with FIFA starting, like, five years ago to really develop and cultivate. And it needed to be different across the different stadiums because of a variety of factors, like indoor versus outdoor stadium. Just what the weather expectations would be in the different locations over the course of time.
[00:23:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:56] Speaker B: Assumptions and expectations around how the soccer ball would actually behave and perform if it was, like, thrown, like. So interesting.
I also think I learned a ton
[00:24:06] Speaker A: thing that's interesting to me about the World cup and just to tie this back to business school is that it really reminded me of the international communities that are on these campuses. I mean, you're surrounded by it every day, but it's just, you know, the kind of passion and patriotism and the sharing of, like, different cultures. It just was really powerful and a nice. I think, a nice way to spend the last month in terms of, you know, people getting together.
[00:24:27] Speaker B: Oh, I love that you said that better than I did. That's so true. So true.
[00:24:32] Speaker A: So, Don, is there anything else that you want to share about mit, Sloan? You know, most people tuning in are probably thinking of applying to business school either this coming season or maybe down the road, but any other kind of words of advice you'd have?
[00:24:45] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, please connect with us, and you have a variety of ways to do that. We continue to host a whole lot of virtual events regardless of where you are. We're also traveling significantly this summer, both domestically and internationally.
We have people responding to all of our emails. I know sometimes you think it's a black hole sending an email request, but we're responding to those. You may have a very, very specific personal question. If you're in the Boston area, do not hesitate to come visit us, please.
I think that's probably my. You know, the strongest thing I want to say to people is engage.
[00:25:23] Speaker A: Yeah. And it. And I saw the calendar. I mean, you guys are out and about, and obviously the campus and the building is fantastic. If anyone is in the Boston area, definitely worth a stop. It's a beautiful building. But, Donna, I really appreciate you making time to do this. Thanks so much. It's just been incredibly helpful to our listeners. And yeah, always nice to catch up with you.
[00:25:41] Speaker B: Thank you, Graham. It's been a pleasure that's going to
[00:25:43] Speaker A: do it for this episode of the show. Thanks for tuning in to the Clear Admit MBA Admissions podcast, and please remember to subscribe, rate and review the show wherever you listen. We'll be back with more of these admissions Q&As all summer long, as well as our regular weekly episodes airing on Mondays.
[00:26:13] Speaker B: Ra.
