Episode Transcript
[00:00:16] Speaker A: Welcome to the Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast. I'm your host, Graham Richmond. And today we have a very special guest on the show to talk about leadership instruction in business school and a very unique offering at the University of Texas McCombs School of Business. It's called the Hildebrand Leadership Fellows Program. And our guest is Tina Mabley. She's the senior assistant dean at UT Austin McCombs. And to anyone who's worked in management education over the last handful of years, Tina probably needs no introduction, but I'll give it a shot just in case. So Tina's been working at McCombs since 2001, moving from alumni relations to admissions to program management to the Dean's office, all over the last 20 plus years. And in her current role as Senior Assistant Dean at McCombs, Tina oversees all aspects of the full, full time MBA program, from strategic goals and curricular development to admissions, career services and more. She's also served as the chair of the Graduate Business Curriculum Roundtable and is now a board member there. Tina earned her undergraduate degree from Dartmouth College in Psychology and education and her MBA from Texas McCombs in marketing and entrepreneurship. Welcome to the show, Tina. It's great to have you.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: Thank you so much, Graham. I'm really happy to be here and excited about this conversation.
[00:01:33] Speaker A: Yeah, I am too. You know, and it's funny, I was thinking about this, so oddly enough, I started Clear Admit around the same time that you took that first role at McCombs, which is, you know, I just left my role at Wharton and, you know, so it makes. That kind of makes both of us either kind of very old or just total industry veterans. And I'm going to go with the industry veterans part.
Yes.
But anyway, yeah, and it also means you and I have crossed paths so many times at different conferences or events, and so I'm happy to just finally get a chance to connect in this form.
But let's start at the beginning. As I alluded, we go fair ways back in the industry, but for listeners who may be new to McCombs, can you just share a little bit about your own journey at the school?
[00:02:13] Speaker B: Absolutely.
When you said we were going to do this podcast, it sort of took me back to reflect, which is a nice thing to think about, kind of how I got where I am. And it's interesting, believe it or not, I'm actually almost living my application essay to business school, which back at the time, as you said, I graduated in psychology and education, and I was really interested in being a part of education but one of my first jobs out of school, I worked for a consultant who was looking at how schools were using technology.
And not to age myself, but this was in the early 90s and so it was really radical.
And I got really interested in educational technology, which is of course now a hotel industry, but at the time was really pioneering and not a lot of people were doing it in a public way. And so I was working actually for a telecom company looking at the innovations happening in education.
And so when I came to business school, I also worked at a large boarding school in admissions and was marketing a life defining product. I think that's what I said in my admissions essay and I really wanted to see more. I grew up with educators and so I was really interested in the business side of things. And so I applied to business school and I believe my application essay talked about working at the nexus of education and business.
And I didn't know exactly where that was going to be. I thought it was going to be maybe educational software at the time.
And as I was going through business school, the dot com, which eventually became a boom, but we had a couple dot com companies come and speak to us in school. And I ended up getting involved in the Austin startup community, the incubators that were here at UT and connected with a company that I ended up joining.
When I graduated in 1998 and saw that entire.com era, we went public. It was a boom. And then we know what happened with the dot com industry. But it was a really pioneering time and we were working, doing things nobody had ever figured out. And that was such an educational experience for me, continuing my MBA education.
And I think it kind of helped prepare me to think about how students are ready for disruption and opportunity and thinking about how they're leading organizations because you never know what's coming next. And that was a time where there was rapid technological change and it's even obviously magnified and multiplied now with the change that students are students and everybody out there in the industry is experiencing. So then I came to McCombs for what I thought was going to be a year. There was no alumni office outside of a large Texas exes that worked for the university.
So they created an alumni office within the business school.
And I said, I'll come back and help build that. I had experience in that.
And then you just kind of start to get yourself involved in things. So when I was doing alumni stuff, I ended up traveling around the world doing admissions events and bringing our alumni out and getting to know them and got into Admissions. And so became director of admissions.
And admissions is kind of my sweet spot. That's where my passion is out there, finding amazing talent. And it's just such a. You have good metrics. It sort of satisfies all the things, your creative side and your science side and finding great humans. And then through that, when you're in admissions, you're always kind of looking at the strategic side of the school because you're seeing what's out there, what students are wanting, what students are looking for or changing. You're working with faculty a lot on their expertise. And so that kind of got me into this role, which has been never boring. You know, we always have something innovative to work on. We dealt with COVID and lots of challenges that come at you. And so it's a. I keep saying I'll quit when I get bored. And it's never boring.
[00:06:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And I love this parallel that you developed, which is the kind of dot com era. And I remember I was working in admissions at Wharton and the big thing then was moving the application online away from paper onto the Internet, which probably sounds silly to everyone listening, but these were big changes happening. And I feel like it's absolutely. We are now in a time with artificial intelligence. And just the way that things have moved to the cloud, there's a lot happening. And that's a great segue into my question about kind of what's happening at McCombs, because I want to talk to you about this program that's called the Hildebrand Leadership Fellows Program. And I'm kind of wondering, just give us the overview and what sort of gap does it fill for MBA students at McCombs?
[00:07:03] Speaker B: Absolutely.
We always see the transformation that happens over the two years that students are in their MBA program. And, and I love every sort of individual story that we hear. We wanted to add intentionality to that so students knew why they were participating in, what they were participating in and have an intentional leadership journey over the two years. And so the Leadership Fellows program allows us to help students see what they're signing up for and why they're doing it. So whether they step into a leadership position with a student organization, they serve as a peer leadership coach, they have speaking opportunities, they work with our coaches. We really wanted to build some intention behind that so that students are kind of pairing that with the expertise they're learning in the classroom and the skills that they're getting through learning their mba, but taking a two year journey, thinking about what kind of leader they want to be, what their purpose Is. And we know that that's a kind of constant exercise, but we really wanted to use the Leadership Fellows program to create an architecture to kind of hang that on. And we also added a badge to it so students will get a micro credential if they complete the full Leadership Fellows program.
[00:08:19] Speaker A: Okay. And I know. So the program places this big emphasis on the difference between leadership and management, which is a little like a chicken and egg type debate or something. I don't know. Making me think of something. I hear that a lot like this sort of leadership versus management. So how does McCombs define that distinction? And why does it matter for who are kind of fairly early in their career when they're coming to business school and then heading back out into the workforce?
[00:08:42] Speaker B: Yeah. I would imagine virtually all of our students who leave here are going to manage somewhere in their career, and that's an important part of what they do. I think the management piece is sort of what you do, and the leadership piece is how you show up what your vision is and how you communicate personal values and where you share your personal values. And I think we want students who are excellent at execution. We also had a term a few years ago that we used in the program where leadership is earned. One of the things about Texas McCombs and our Hildebrand MBAs is we want students to really show up and earn the leadership roles that they have.
We want them to start practicing that here and taking those leadership roles and thinking about, you know, how do I want to show up? What is my vision we actually put together. I know this isn't a visual exercise, but designing your. Your MBA leadership journey for students to really pause and reflect and think about how they show up as a leader and what that means to them. And every time they interact with different leaders, how they add that to their journey.
[00:09:54] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think. I mean, one thing that's interesting is, you know, I feel like candidates come into an MBA program often with, like, assumptions about what leadership is. And so I'm wonder, like, do you have any examples or, you know, how does this program, you know, how are the leadership fellows in the McCombs MBA sort of being challenged to experience or, you know, kind of how are their assumptions being challenged and their experiences being kind of broadened in this way?
[00:10:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, we have an exercise at the beginning of orientation called the Executive Challenge. It's one of the favorite days of orientation.
And I don't want to spill all the tea, as my kids would say, but I'm sure I use that wrong. But that's part of how I stay cool with high schoolers.
But I think that part of the Executive Challenge is you get so busy doing, you forget to think about what you're leading.
And we all know MBAs get competitive. And so that's part of the exercise. And that's sort of the first moment that you see the importance of really understanding why you're doing what you're doing.
And so we kind of start there, and then, you know, throughout the program. We have one of the largest coaching programs that I'm aware of with our peer schools. It's been. We've had it for a long time. All students get eight hours of coaching each semester.
[00:11:15] Speaker A: Oh, wow.
[00:11:15] Speaker B: Either communication coaching or executive coaching. And part of the Leadership Fellows Program was we wanted students to use those hours intentionally. They don't all get used. Surprisingly, it's one of the best things we offer. And so we want to encourage students to do it. And, you know, as with many things, forced leadership development is. I don't have a great analogy for it, but you can't really force leadership development. It has to be something that the individual is engaged in themselves. And so this. The reason that we've sort of gamified this a little bit is so that students level up through their Leadership Fellows program. And the more they do, the more they get access to.
[00:11:56] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:11:56] Speaker B: So if they want additional coaching hours, they can, but there are certain things that they have to achieve along the way and.
And participate in. So.
[00:12:05] Speaker A: Okay, so. So I know we kind of dove right into, you know, to a lot of the. The details here. So just stepping back for one second, like, because we got into some of the details, I just want to have a sense of, like, what are the core components of the Leadership Policy program? You know, the coaching assessments, whatever is on offer, and what does the journey look like for someone as they go through, but also even something further back, like, how does someone get into this program? Is it. Do they. Do they tick a box when they're applying, or is it something that they decide when they get to campus as a student? So take us through those two things. Whichever one you want to start with is fine.
[00:12:37] Speaker B: Okay, great. Yeah. So this is something that any student can do, so you don't have to apply for it. It's open to all students. And that was really important for us to create something that was really access to all students. Anybody who wants to opt into this journey can. And the other great thing is it's flexible.
So we do have a lot of Fellows programs. That you have to apply for. But this one is one that's available to all students.
And the more you do, the more you invest in it, the more you get access to. And then the Leadership Fellows moniker is granted when you complete the program.
[00:13:10] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:13:11] Speaker B: And that's when you get the micro credential, the badge for completion. And what's nice about it is that there are a lot of things that can count for those activities. So being a student leader counts for some of the activities.
Being selected as a peer leadership coach counts for some of those. Student leadership are selected positions. So there is sort of access points, participating in a lot of the leadership speaker series or webinars or things that we have that are honing skills that students are needing in the leadership space.
The architecture that we hang it on is from our faculty and our faculty expertise. And really looking at the combination of character and credibility.
So having the credibility, the strategic agility, the excellence in communication, their teamwork and collaboration skills, really having that be the credibility that they have out in the marketplace. They're good at what they do. They're agile leaders that can navigate disruption. But also the character that they bring to it and their authenticity, integrity and really sort of what their purpose is we have so with our peer leadership coaches they go through an exercise and do their purpose statement, which is something we have in our leadership designing your leadership journey. But we know that a forced leadership purpose statement is not, that's not what we're going for. We really want it to be an authentic curiosity that students are thinking about this. We also know it doesn't end here. And so we want it to be an exercise that they go through in their two years. So once they get through all the different levels of. And they can do it, like I said, at any time during the two years. And so it's through our McCombs plus program, which is a lot of our co curricular coaching, our micro consulting projects, they can get credit for those in this process. And then they have a lot of webinars and series that they do. And so they kind of hold the architecture for the Leadership Fellows program. So students have to reflect on the different things that they participate in and are a part of. And that's where they record the activities that they're a part of and they get through the two year process and each level gets them, like I said, access to additional things which is. And we're continuing to build that. You know, we'd love to do a 360 for all students. Currently we do it for our Hildebrand Scholars, which is another thing we can talk about.
[00:15:40] Speaker A: Yeah. So I guess the things that I'm hearing from you that really jump out at me are, number one, any MBA student at McCombs can take part in this. So it's not like some sort of gated thing. And then I also like what I think what I'm hearing is that they can kind of build this on their own time, like figure out, you know, go after the different, I'm going to call them modules or whatever the different sort of requirements in order to work their way towards the credential that they would get if they do everything.
And I also like what you're saying about how each time they do something, maybe another door opens for them to continue further into that in that journey. So I appreciate you shedding light. I know it's kind of. There was a lot to cover in that question, but I appreciate you covering it all.
Another thing I wanted to ask you about, so McCombs is kind of famous for experiential learning. And so I wondered, you know, obviously it's one thing to watch a lecture or to have some, some coaching, but what kinds of practical like hands on leadership opportunities do the leadership Fellows get that really help translate those classroom ideas into practical behavior?
[00:16:42] Speaker B: Absolutely.
There's so many different things and ways that they can participate in leadership activities. The recency effect for me, just last night we had our Board Fellows showcase. And so our students are selected to be part of Board Fellows and they serve on local nonprofit boards and they do a project. And so for those nonprofits that the nonprofits don't have time to participate in. And so we do a big showcase and we have a poster walk and we have a showcase. We invite all of the nonprofits and just every story that's there that the students are participating in and the way that they're interacting with incredible leaders on these boards of organizations is a great opportunity for students to be in that leadership space.
They're having things that they're taking on. We do training for our Board Fellows program. So there's things that they're learning about being a board leader and then those are experiences that they can put into the Leadership Fellows architecture and get credit for. The other thing are McCombs plus projects. So if they work on a micro consulting project and they have teamwork that they do there, they can register those activities as well. And then our peer leadership coaches, we select a group of students to be peer leadership coaches. Coaches to the first year students and they each get one of our study teams that they are responsible for. And so they have a second year peer leadership coach that really kind of helps them as they go through their group process. And then those students get training throughout the year as peer leadership coaches. And they do a lot of natural reflection within that course. That counts for the Leadership Fellows program. So we've tried to make it something that is really customizable to the individual student that's going through it. But the most important piece is that intentionality that they're really leaning into thinking about it, not just having the experience, but reflecting on it and building that habit over time.
[00:18:41] Speaker A: Okay, so I guess related note, since we're talking about all the kind of features of this, is that I read that the program just received pretty significant new funding to expand.
[00:18:52] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:18:52] Speaker A: And so I'm kind of wondering, like, what will that allow you to do? Because it already sounds quite robust. Right.
[00:18:57] Speaker B: But specifically. Or. Oh, or the Hildebrand gift.
[00:19:00] Speaker A: Yeah, the Hildebrand. Yeah, that gift. Yeah. So, like, what will the Hildebrand Leadership Fellows be doing in a year's time? Or like, what are the kind of expansion plans?
[00:19:08] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for asking.
So when we got this amazingly generous gift from the Hildebrand family from Mindy Hildebrand to name our MBA program, she was amazingly supportive and said, what would have the biggest impact? And I want to be a part of what will have the biggest impact on the program.
And you know, creating opportunity and scholarships is a really big part of the process.
And so we built designated Hildebrand Scholars who have a full ride to the MBA program. They are selected through the admissions process and we can go into that at some point. But part of the Hildebrand Scholar group is that they are going through the Leadership Fellows program as a matter of course.
And so they are people who showcase what is possible with the Leadership Fellows program. Whether you want to call them our street team or our early adopters.
It's really nice to have this year. We have six amazing students who are going through this process as part of their required curriculum. So we've kind of, you asked sort of how did the two years look? We have models for how it looks for individual people and then everyone else has access to all of those same things that they can go through and customize for their own journey, which is.
So as we will continue to kind of lean into this leadership space with our gift and work with, we're doing some things with the full time program, some things with our working professional program. So there's lots of opportunity. But we really wanted it to impact the way students go through the program and really thinking about who they want to be as future leaders.
And you and I have been in this business for a long time. We've been talking about leadership development for a long time. These are not new things necessarily, but they're ever more important in these times where we're considering the role of humans in future organizations and the role that humans have to play and how to be human and how to be authentic. But also understand the changes that are happening and being prepared for changes that you don't even know are coming, what it's going to look like in five, two years, five, 10.
And so really helping students be nimble, and I keep using the term habit, but that's really what we want, to help them build that habit while they're here.
So that gift allows us to really think about what is important for leadership.
Global leadership is important to us. And so we have some ideas that we will lean into there as we kind of continue to add things onto these opportunities. But that's kind of an overview.
[00:22:01] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. And it's really interesting because, you know, we've been talking about this program, and early on the conversation, you talked about the sort of seismic changes happening out there in the world. And I could not agree more that these skills, these soft skills around leadership. And I say this, kind of laughing only because my ordinarily, I do this podcast with a co host who constantly chides me for my undergraduate major, which was art history. But I know that in, you know, I'm talking to you and you're, you know, you were psych and education, so you speak my language. And I feel like the skills that we developed in those types of programs are actually quite useful. And I'm, I'm kind of, you know, in this world that we're, we don't really know how it's going to turn out with AI et cetera. But I can't help but think that critical thinking skills and judgment and leadership are just going to be incredibly important, for sure. And actually, that's a perfect segue because I've been wanting to ask about, you know, we hear so much about MBA programs kind of adjusting their curricula and making sure that they have their ear to the ground on what employers are telling them. And so I kind of wonder, what do employers tell you that they want from McCombs MBA students in terms of leadership capabilities?
And obviously, how does the Leadership Fellows program help students meet those expectations?
[00:23:12] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a Great question.
You talked about soft skills and we tend to use the term durable skills or human skills. That's something that's really important to us. And these are the skills, you know, we joke about that the robots can't do.
And those are things that MBA programs have been teaching for a long time. It's what we're good at. We have a lot of leadership experts on our faculty. All of our students take a leadership class and this leadership fellows space and our co curricular opportunities is a place where they get to flex those things they learn in the classroom and take them outside.
And so we hear from employers that those are the skills that they're looking for. Strategic thinking, problem solving, communication is a big one. Those are the, you know, obviously the skills in finance and accounting and operations. Those are all table stakes. So those are things they're assuming you get with an mba, but all those sort of human skills and how they show up and the ability to put things together in new and interesting ways. Creativity. As you can imagine though, increasingly employers are looking for AI skills, technology skills that students are nimble or tech savvy. And that's something that we've worked really hard to help students be comfortable with because we realize the world they're going to enter when they leave an MBA program is not the world they entered when they came in. And so keeping them current, what are sort of the major changes that are happening in technology?
I have one faculty member who teaches one of our AI classes who wouldn't give me a syllabus until two weeks before class because things are changing so rapidly.
And the application space that you talked about, experiential learning is really where students get access to that real world thinking.
So I think for employers we want to make sure students have the capabilities and also they're thoughtful about who they're showing up as and really there to earn their leadership.
[00:25:06] Speaker A: Got it.
I think I mentioned this to you before we came on air, but as you know, most people tuning into this show are thinking about business school and very focused on the application process. And so I wondered, if you're a young professional today listening, what's one thing that someone could start doing today, even before business school that might help them build the habits of an effective leader? Any advice there?
[00:25:31] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I think you've heard me say it a lot here, but reflection, building their self awareness.
And I think that generation coming to business school right now is actually really good at feedback. I think we, in different generations, we won't say which one felt feedback was Critical. And I think sometimes that's what people experience in the work world.
But I see a lot more students who ask for feedback, who understand who they're coming in as. And those are really the things that I think are helpful in coming into an MBA program.
The MBA application process is a reflective process in itself because you're thinking about, why do I want to take two years out of the working world? Why do I want for a full time program? Why do I want to get my mba? What am I going to do with it? And the only mistake I see made sometimes is that people start telling the school what they want to hear.
And for us, I always tell people when I get up in front of prospective students, the more introspection and thoughtfulness and people you talk to now will create a better application for you because your story and why it works for you will create the best application essay. The more you know about the program that you're applying to and why it will make a difference for what you're trying to do, that is your application. And so don't think about what we're looking for. Think about your own story. And then, you know, spoiler alert. It gives you a roadmap for your 2 years in business school of what you want to take advantage of and why you're there.
[00:27:07] Speaker A: Yeah. And in some cases, that roadmap is actually the one you adhere to in your case, which is kind of rare. But I do think we talk about it all the time on this show, about how it is this chance to reflect. So instead of just focusing on I need to do what it takes to get in, it's often good to step back and actually realize that. I mean, so many people, when we connect with current students in business schools like McCombs, we always ask what was the greatest aspect of applying? And so many people say, I didn't like it at the time. But now that I look back, all that reflection I had to do to write successful essays was really useful. So I could not agree more. Yeah. So connecting with people at the school and really being purposeful about gathering the information to make sure you're setting on the right path.
[00:27:52] Speaker B: The other thing I would just add quickly that I always tell people and I say, if you've ever talked to me in the admissions process, you'll get this from me. But is use your opportunity as an applicant to an MBA program to talk to whoever is doing what you think you want to do. And you will be amazed at who will say yes to you if you say, can I get 20 to 30 minutes of your time. I'm applying to MBA programs. I'm thinking about this. You have an opportunity like no other in your professional career to have access to people. You'll be amazed at who will talk to you during this process, who will connect with you, and then you get those people involved in your journey and you start to have a network to access not just when you're looking for a job, but as part of your journey. I always tell students around Thanksgiving to thank the people who help them get here.
And so when you start that before your journey, and if you're not sure about getting an mba, it's a great opportunity to find somebody who's doing what you think you want to do and say, I'd love to hear about your journey, how you got there. And this is what I'm thinking about because we want to make sure that this two years is used wisely. And, you know, I speak for all my peers when we say that. And you, I'm sure that, you know, this is a big decision and we recognize and honor that. And so we want students to be thoughtful about it. And the more thoughtful they are about that decision, a good application kind of falls out of that.
[00:29:20] Speaker A: Yeah, that is so well said. Yeah, could not agree more. So while we're talking about applications, though, I have to, you know, this is, you know, a very admissions oriented podcast. So I want to just ask you, putting aside the Hildebrand leadership fellows and everything else, like, what advice generally would you give applicants who are thinking about McCombs for their MBA? Like, you know, why should they apply and how might they put their best foot forward as applicants?
[00:29:43] Speaker B: Yeah, be yourself. Show authenticity. We want to know who you are and what you're trying to do. We aren't looking for a perfect resume. We're looking for people with. With purpose, resilience, curiosity.
This is a learning lab, but in audio. Our building is a learning laboratory and we are seven blocks from downtown Austin. So there's a huge live learning lab in Austin. We are at the intersection of the school and the city, sorry, the campus and the city.
And we have. We're one of the largest universities in the world, but we have this intimate MBA program. So think about how you might take advantage of all those nodes and connections and then, you know, demonstrated impact. We look for students who have had impact where they are, they're involved. We are definitely a leave the place better than you found it kind of culture. The reason, you know, I talked about loving my job is our students make Us different every year. And so I have had no two years that are the same, because there's something different that we're working on every year, and that's. And we, you know, our students really kind of drive a lot of that with their areas of interest and what's happening in the world. So what is your impact that you've had in the communities or the organizations that you've been a part of, and then connecting your goals here? We want to make sure we can help you get where you're trying to go. So understanding who we are visiting is a great way to understand that our students are very open. Our students are very transparent about sort of what the experience is like, and so they help with that journey. And, you know, I say we admit people, not profiles, so we really want to know who's there and why they're here and how we can help.
[00:31:31] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think now I may be going out of line, but I seem to recall someone on your admissions team told me that you guys have a.
There's an everyone can do, like, an interview with a current student, or you get to talk to a current student, and that it's not so much an evaluative thing as it is a chance for you to really connect with the community and learn more about the program, which I thought was so cool. As a way to do this. That seems like a nice piece.
[00:31:52] Speaker B: We added a video essay, which, in the time of AI written essays was a really good thing to do. We were a little ahead of it. We were doing it for other reasons. We wanted the opportunity for each student to tell their story verbally in a way that every person reviewing the application could see. So not just notes from an interviewer who may have had a good day or a bad day, but really have the opportunity to have a standing piece in their application of their own story, but really making sure we have that human piece of it. That's the exchange between a student getting to tell their story to another. I mean, an applicant getting to tell their story to a student and hearing about how that fit is with the program.
[00:32:37] Speaker A: Yeah, that just seems like a great mix of the two. To give you guys, as an admissions team, what you need with the video, but also give the candidates a chance to connect, which is terrific.
Um, so, Tina, you've been so generous with your time. I just really appreciate you making the time to connect and to talk about this, and obviously, just a pleasure to have you on the show. So thank you so much.
[00:32:58] Speaker B: All right. Always nice to chat with you, Graham. Usually we're in some other part of the world.
[00:33:02] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:33:03] Speaker B: Seeing each other.
[00:33:04] Speaker A: That's true. Yeah. Well, that's going to be a wrap on this episode of the Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast. Please remember to subscribe to the show wherever you listen and to tune in weekly for new episodes.
