Episode Transcript
[00:00:15] Speaker A: Welcome to the Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast. I'm Graham Richmond, and this special episode of the show takes us to Boston, where Clear Admit organized a big MBA fair with some of the very best business schools in the world. While we were at the fair, we had a number of panels, discussions with admissions directors from leading schools, and we recorded them so that we could bring them to you, our podcast audience, who maybe weren't with us in Boston. So this particular panel that you're going to hear in this episode is called Admissions Tips 2 what yout Goals, Essays and Interviews. And in this session, basically, I continued to explore tips for success in the admissions process. Some of you may have already heard, we did a admissions tips panel, one that you can also listen to in this feed. But essentially here what I did is I dove into questions around, like, how you should define and articulate career goals, what's the best way to begin the essay brainstorming process, who should write letters of recommendation, and also how to prepare for an admissions interview.
For this particular panel, we were really fortunate to have admissions directors from Harvard Business School, Indiana University's Kelley School of Business, University of California, Berkeley, Haas School of Business, and Duke University's Fuqua School of Business.
So stay tuned. It's a great listen and we're so happy to be able to bring this audio to our listeners who maybe weren't with us in Boston.
[00:01:45] Speaker B: Welcome, everybody. Appreciate everyone coming in to hear from our panelists. This is the second admissions tips session, and for those of you who are here for the first one, we talked about the stuff that you don't have as much control over, like, you know, you have your grades from undergrad or the work that you've done. Right. And this session is more about what you say in the application process via, you know, your stated career goals, your essays, interviews. We're going to talk about all those kinds of things. I want to briefly introduce our guests as we get started. So first up, we have Katja from hbs.
Thanks for being here, Katya. I appreciate it. Jim is here from Indiana. Kelly.
Eric from Berkeley, Haas, and Allison from Duke. Fuqua. Did I say Fuqua?
[00:02:33] Speaker C: Right.
[00:02:33] Speaker B: I always.
[00:02:34] Speaker D: Okay, you got it, you got it. I noticed the improvement and I appreciate it.
[00:02:37] Speaker B: I've been working on it.
All right, so we're going to dive in. And the first question is for Katja. And this question is, you know, all the schools, it seems like almost all of them ask about your kind of career path, your goals, but what are you looking for? You know, because I. When someone says to me, what are your career goals? Are you looking for me to like name firms that I want to work for and even like the role that I want or the office that I want to be in? Or is it broader? Like what are you looking for? Why are you asking that question?
[00:03:05] Speaker E: Yeah, totally. Thanks, Graham. And it's a great question. I think for us, if you have a specific firm dream firm, dream role, that's wonderful. Feel free to put it in there. It's not necessary though.
So we like to think about the career goals in terms of we want to know that you have thought about what you'd like to do. But more so we're curious about how business school fits into those career goals and how you're going to leverage that HBS MBA to pursue those career goals. So when you think about sort of your short term goals within the next five years or so post mba, we are curious about what you're thinking about there. We want to know that you've thought through it, but think also about long term goals and really in these leadership roles, maybe C suite roles that you want to be in, how will the HBS MBA position you for those roles long term as well? So we want to know that you've reflected on your career goals in both of those scenarios, but it doesn't have to be super specific. You are more than welcome to be interested in a couple of different industries and want to try out a few different things. We want to know that you're curious to pursue a few different things during the MBA and so feel free to tell us about that as well.
[00:04:13] Speaker B: So Jim, I want to turn to you and talk about the benefits of having a set of goals as you enter business school. And I don't know if you're willing to comment also on something that people refer to as the triple jump when someone's trying to change industry function and geography.
So those two areas I'm curious about.
[00:04:33] Speaker F: You know, obviously having goals provides you with a little bit of a roadmap. It gives you some direction.
The reality of an mba, the two years goes by incredibly fast and I do think there's value to coming in with, you know, some goals, a plan, but also an open mind. Because I think many of our students are exposed to things that they had never even considered. They get excited by something they learn from a corporate speaker, a class, a professor, an experience.
So keep an open mind. But having a little bit of a roadmap, giving some thought, even doing some networking before you set foot on campus in the summer, before you Start could provide a little bit more direction for you in terms of the triple jump.
The reality is, I think every one of us can give you plenty of examples of people who have changed geography, industry, function. But I think you also have to recognize that for every jump, you're going to have to be more proactive than you need to be anyways.
Really think about the transferable skills that you have developed in whatever function or industry you have worked in to help you with your story. You know, when you share your reasons for the interests you have.
So, yes, it can be done, but you want to make sure that you have some good energy towards really building the network. And if it's a location or a function or industry, as I said, really help them understand what tools, skills, things that you have that you'll certainly be building on in the MBA program that will help you with that transition as well.
[00:06:22] Speaker B: And you hinted at something that I think we should underline, which is that, you know, people pivot sometimes, you know, you have a set of goals going into a business school, you write about it in your applications, and sometimes that shifts, and that's okay.
Eric, I thought of you when I wrote this question, this next question, because many moons ago we had done a panel about essays. And so, you know, most business schools require candidates to write an essay or two. And I know when I looked at those essay questions, applying to business school, it's kind of daunting.
And so I wondered if you would just give us some advice on, like, how do you start the brainstorming process and like, how do you figure out which stories in your past merit airtime in your essays?
[00:07:01] Speaker C: So this is a really good question, and thanks for thinking me on this one because I do talk about this one a lot.
So I'll start with a really obvious note. It maybe doesn't seem obvious in this moment, but it certainly is.
Your ability to curate your narrative and your ability to do that well is not just valuable for a business school application, it's valuable for business school. It's valuable for you to be able to tell your story and understand your story, to be able to network, to make future professional opportunities available to you, whether it be within interviewing for future jobs, whether it be in connecting with others, that broadens your network, maybe it's discovering your new partner, your new client, all of that matters.
[00:07:43] Speaker B: So.
[00:07:43] Speaker C: So when it comes to identifying which is your stories to tell, and I am almost remembering the panel that we had because I think I remember thinking one of the hardest things to do is to curate as people, we have a lot of stories that make up who we are.
Even if the prompt is career goals, even within that we've already heard in the room, we may have multiple different professional objectives.
Short term, medium term, long term, maybe plan A, plan B, plan C. How do we curate that down to fit into this space?
And is that exercise valuable? And it is, because again, it's useful all the way through your business school experience.
So I've often encouraged people to actually start not with the future job function or industry or geography when that becomes that issue, but rather to go that one step further. Let's talk about what is the problem I want to solve? What is the community that I want to serve? What is the impact I want to have? And then work backwards from that. What are the types of roles and jobs that can get me to the position to actually address that problem, to serve that community, to have that impact?
And then how might I get into those types of roles? What are pathways that I've seen either networking with alums of the schools that you're interested in, starting with LinkedIn searches to see people's journeys and pathways to get to the roles that have been impactful in the industries that you're thinking about and then map those back over to your own stories. Say, well, what do I have to tell about my own journey that might get me to have that type of impact, that type of goal?
And that for me is a useful curation tool.
Does this part of me serve that objective to tell the story of this impact that I want to have?
That doesn't mean that there's not opportunities to then tell these other facets of ourselves.
In some cases, programs are all different, but there may be opportunities for interviews where you can add those layers back in, add those other parts of your story. There may be other areas in the application where you can bring these other parts of yourself in. There may be other opportunities through engaging with your recommenders. Say, hey, could you please tell this story about me? Because I'm not going to get to tell that story about me within my essays because I'm focused in this one particular space. But I would love for people to know this broader array of who I am.
But as a framework, I encourage that because then ultimately you're curating a narrative that's not just for business school applications. And I think that is one of the most powerful things is the process of preparing for business school applications. Is a process of preparing your narrative that you can than leverage in the longer term.
[00:10:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's a great exercise. It's kind of taking like a personal inventory almost and thinking through, like, you know, what are the different stories I have to tell? How do they map to not only what I want to accomplish, but also in some cases, how do they map to what the school's asking me? Because that can be a problem, too, when you sort of shoehorn in a story that you're dying to tell that doesn't even respond to the question that the school has asked. So keep that in mind as well. Allison, some schools have wacky essay questions lists. I'm not thinking of anyone in particular here.
[00:10:52] Speaker D: What could you mean?
[00:10:54] Speaker B: Fuqua has this really interesting essay, which is 25 random facts.
But I was wondering, do you have any advice on maybe that. But more broadly, like, there are a number of schools, I think NYU has like a share six pictures with us.
There are a bunch of essays out there or assignments that are a bit different than a career goal statement. Any advice on this stuff?
[00:11:13] Speaker D: Yeah, I think hopefully you guys are learning tonight through your conversations that each school here has a distinct personality. And we spend a lot of time getting our applications ready, and we spend a lot of time crafting our essay questions. So we are asking you the questions that we're asking you for a specific reason.
So think about the essay questions in the context of the personality of the schools that you're applying to. And then there's a duality to balance here, because think about why are we asking this question? We've probably asked it because maybe we weren't getting what we were looking for at some point in the application. So you mentioned the 25 things at Fuqua we really want. We're missing the human piece of what is it like to sit down with you and have a cup of coffee? Maybe the question is trying to get at how are you going to present this, as was said earlier to an employer, how can you take disparate information and consolidate it? How can you think creatively or strategically about a way to communicate a message? So you want to think about why is the school asking it in this way? Based on what I know about them, why are they asking it in this way? So that's one side. The other side of the coin is when you answer it, don't tell us what you think you want us to hear. You still have to be authentic in that. And I think that is the challenge of trying to do something creative or different but still sound like yourself. So if you are not a graphic designer, don't graphically design a list to give to me. It's probably not going to work. Well, if you're not naturally a funny person, humor can be difficult.
So, you know, think about those things and make sure that, as you were saying, you know, I really think that Fuqua is trying to understand this piece of me. So I'm going to tell it again to Eric's point, in keeping with the story that I am telling overall through my application. And I think these sort of non traditional essays are a great time to take your draft to people who know you and say, does this still sound like me? What I was hoping to convey was this about me. Is that coming across so that you make sure you are consistent. So think about the impetus for the question and then make sure you stay true and authentic to who you are as you answer it.
[00:13:18] Speaker B: So one nugget on your 25 random facts essay is that Allison told me that when you hire someone to work on the admissions team at Fuqua, they have to write that as well.
[00:13:28] Speaker D: Yes. And that's actually how it started because we did it internally. And so now everybody who starts does have to send that out. And it's a ton of fun. And immediately you know something about that person that, hey, I love Australian Shepherds too, but you find these little things and you can really make that connection.
[00:13:42] Speaker B: That's a lot of fun. Katya, I want to talk a little bit about letters of recommendation references.
You know, how do I go about sort of choosing who's going to write those letters and also how are you using that in the process? And I mean, if I'm cynical, don't all the references just sort of say nice things like how are you wading through that and you know, figuring out like gaining something in the file?
[00:14:06] Speaker E: Yeah, absolutely. So I think to your first question, picking who your recommenders should be.
Pick the people who know you the best and who can speak the best to the story that you are telling in this application. So a few of us had have mentioned your story and what your story is going to be. These applications should tell us a sync story of who you are. What brought you to this point of wanting to get your mba? Why an mba and why specifically the schools that you're choosing to apply to. So once you've got that nailed down, think about the people who can speak the best and bring the most detail and the most color to that story.
So we at HBS at least much prefer that you pick someone who knows you the best rather than someone with maybe a fancier title or someone who's in a really senior leadership position at your company, but maybe doesn't have a lot of information or on who you are and can bring detail and examples and stories of their own to this application. So what we're really looking for when we see these letters of recommendation are people that can add to that story that you're telling, can bring concrete examples of things that you have done, where you've taken initiative, where you've empowered others. They can speak to the impact on the communities that you belong to, that impact that you've made, and they can tell us more about that. It's one of the few qualitative pieces of data that we get from your application that has a voice that can tell a story and that can just enhance all of the points that you're making in other pieces of the application. So pick people who know you well, have conversations with them, tell them the story that you are telling in this application as well, and coach them a little bit if you're able to, so that they can bring new and detailed information to your application in their own voice.
[00:15:50] Speaker B: So, Jim, I want to dig deeper on this point. Coaching your references and like, how much information should I give them? Like, should I give them my entire application, like, all my essays?
And also, what about when the referee comes to me and says, listen, I'm busy, you write it, I'll sign it, and we know that that happens. And so what do I say? I mean, do I just, do I jump for a joint, say, wow, this is the best possible case scenario because I'm going to write this amazing letter and then, you know, but what, what should I do in that situation?
[00:16:20] Speaker F: Second question first. I think we'd much prefer that if the recommender simply doesn't have time, find someone else, because somehow your voice can come through in that recommendation. And then it raises some concerns, some red flags. You know, I think she had such a good point, point. Because we want recommenders who can again, help tell your story, help frame what you have done, provide examples. But you can't assume that your recommender is going to remember all those things. I don't think you need to give them your whole application, but take them out for coffee, take them out to lunch, share your resume, just talk about why you are going back to school, what you hope to accomplish, and maybe talk about some of the highlights of your experience with them just to jog their memory so that then with that information, they aren't repeating or copying what you have shared in your resume, but taking the updated knowledge they have of you and hopefully crafting a good recommendation. And with all that in mind, give them a lot of time.
Because it's amazing how many applicants seem to ask a recommender right before it's due. And then we start getting emails that talk about, my recommender had a family emergency and needs more time. It's like you just asked them, didn't you?
So give them time and if you're worried that, you know, they haven't submitted them, send them a thank you note, even if they haven't maybe sent it yet, just to, you know, spurn their time towards finishing that recommendation for you.
[00:18:07] Speaker B: I think you're also, you're highlighting a really important point, which is that on some levels, the recommendation process is a little bit of a test to see how good you are at managing someone else through a process. Right. So giving them time to write the letter.
And also, it's not hands off. You know, I think the temptation is, oh, I've got to write all these essays, I got to take a test, I got to go visit school. Schools. And so all I need to do for the referees is just put their email into the form and then I'm done. Right. But no, you should take them to coffee, you should give them the materials so that they can be up to speed. I can remember reading files when I was an admissions officer. There was, you know, a candidate had said, oh, I'm going to. I'm going to be an investment banker. But the referee was talking about, had this skill set that was like, oh, no, I'm sure that, you know, Johnny's going to be a great consultant. I was like, what? What's going on here? Like, does the referee not even know, you know? So that's important.
I want to make sure we stay on time. So let's turn to interviewing.
Another big piece of the application process is the interview.
What happens in an MBA admissions interview? Like, who interviews me? What am I asked and how much is it worth? Is it like the final hurdle that's going to determine everything, or is it just another piece in the process?
[00:19:15] Speaker C: Sure, I'm happy to speak to this, but I think what's important to note here is this is one of the parts of the MBA application that's likely unique by school.
So one of the things I would encourage you to do is once you've identified the schools that you're looking to apply to, take a look at the different schools policy on interviews. So I will speak to Berkeley's interview process. I'll try and broaden it out and really encourage my colleagues to jump in within our own process.
Our interviews are done by our alumni and our students. They go through a series of trainings so that they have a sense of sort of acknowledging the biases they bring into those experiences.
They get your resume, but only your resume. They don't get the full part of your application when you're invited to interview. We're fairly clear in our invitation that the person interviewing you has only seen your resume because we want to encourage you in that process not to be afraid to tell stories you've already told, because otherwise you might leave gaps in the type of stories that you tell. Our interviews are structured. There's a set of questions that every interviewer asks and then there's a bank of additional questions that they can draw from so that you can get a consistent experience no matter whom you engage with.
When it comes to the types of things they're looking for, they want to hear you tell your story. They're evaluating your communication skills. They are reflecting on what you've identified as your career trajectory.
They want to understand how well you know our school. Within our process. We don't ask a lot of questions for you to sort of validate that you've done the research. But if you get to the interview stage, you should be aware of what the school stands for, mission statement, the types of professional opportunities that are available, clubs and resources, because those may come up as part of the interview because you'll be speaking with alums and second year students who are going to be reflecting on exactly those experiences.
And so those are the ways in which we encourage people to prepare. Now, you've also asked a question that I think might be very specific to school, which is how valuable is the interview in our process?
So again, I can only speak to Berkeley's process. Within our process.
We're making preliminary decisions based on the materials that you've submitted.
Getting to know you is such an important part of this.
And so we believe that it is additive to the overall decision.
But I have often told people nobody gets in on the interview alone, nor would anybody ever be rejected on the interview alone. It's an additive piece to the puzzle.
[00:21:47] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a fair. No, I think that's great. And that's actually. I think you make a really good point. So, Katya, are the interviews at hbs, they're not resume based. I believe that you guys have read the file and it's entire, so it's very different, right?
[00:21:59] Speaker E: You want to just say, yeah, yeah, that's correct. So Your interview interviewer will have read your application first word to last word. And everything will be. All the questions will be dependent on what's in your application. So for us, we're using the interview just to get to know you better from what you've put on the application.
And I will agree with Eric, ours are additive. But the way we're looking at the interviews is we want to see what voice you're going to bring to our case method based style of learning. So our interview is really just our chance to see how you describe the experience, experiences that you've had and how you're ultimately going to teach your classmates through the case method and vice versa, how you're going to learn from them as well.
[00:22:36] Speaker B: And Jim, how about you guys? Is it, who's doing the interviews? Are they blind?
[00:22:40] Speaker F: Yeah. Similar to Berkeley. We have, we don't have alums, but it's staff and then a very small team of second year students who apply and are selected and trained to be interviewers.
You know, another important part of the interview, obviously communication skills, but kind of emotional intelligence, self awareness, social awareness. And one of the things that we're often doing is kind of forecasting a year from now, when the applicant is sitting in front of a recruiter representing not only themselves, but representing the Kelley School, we know what we can offer, what we will provide. And so we have to get a sense where they are now, knowing what they can gain through the MBA program. Can we get them to the place where they're going to make everyone proud when they're sitting in front of a recruiter?
[00:23:25] Speaker B: Okay. And just to go back to Katja for one second, you guys are. It's only admissions team members that interview.
[00:23:32] Speaker E: Yep. So we have an admissions board. Most are alumni, but they're almost all senior leadership on the admissions team.
[00:23:37] Speaker B: Right. Okay. So that varies too. So it's like you would want to know who, what they know and maybe the style of interview. What about at Fuqua?
[00:23:45] Speaker D: Very similar to Haas. It's going to be either current state students or alumni.
[00:23:49] Speaker B: Okay.
And they will have read the file.
[00:23:52] Speaker D: Or they will only have the resumes.
[00:23:53] Speaker B: Only the resume. Okay. You were going to add something, Jim.
[00:23:55] Speaker F: I'm just going to mention that I think it's important to note that whether you're interviewing with an alum, a student, a staff member, they are all going to carry the same weight in the process. There's not one interviewer that's going to be better or worse in terms of how you are evaluated.
[00:24:13] Speaker B: Great point. Allison. Last Question.
And this is still about interviewing, but it's about preparing what. What should a candidate do to get ready for this part of the process?
[00:24:23] Speaker D: I mean, I think a couple quick things and then the two things that I think are most important.
It is a professional interview. So if it's in person or it's virtual, you should be dressed in business attire. And depending on the policy, it may be business casual. If it's virtual, we can 100% tell if you are reading off your screen. Don't do that.
Even if you think you're really good at it, you're not.
So speak naturally. We do want to get to know you. I think that one area that really is important is that first question is often going to be either tell me about yourself or walk you through your resume. Walk me through your resume. You're going to have somewhere between 30 and 60 minutes. If you take 20 minutes to ramble through your resume because you haven't prepared, you have missed a huge opportunity. And I see this happen all the time.
So have a two to four minute pitch to walk through your resume. Say, this is how I got here, this is what I'm looking to do today. Boom. You don't want to recite it verbatim from memory, but you want to know what you're going to say so that you're able to get that out quickly and get onto the meat of the interview.
The other thing I would say is sometimes when you get to the interview, you're like, oh my God, I've been through all of this.
I've written the application, it's done. I've applied to eight schools and now I just wait and see. And when the interview comes, you forget who you've told. What.
So very similar to the recommendation letter, if you have put, even if it's a resume based interview and you have told me that you want to be a brand manager and then it comes out in your interview. He says he wants to do consulting, I'm going, what is he doing?
And then the other part of that is I would say if you've only got a couple days, review the application you submitted to that school. Remind yourself of what you said, what the story is that you told, and the specifics about that school. Because if you sit down with my interviewer and you say, I'm really interested in the Duke veterans club, that is not what we call our veterans club, that's what somebody else does. So you want to make sure that you remember what you have said. So spend that time reviewing what You've already said no specifics about the school because this is a two way conversation and the person interviewing you loves their school and they want to talk about it. So if you have no questions at the end of your interview or you say something like, so what makes your school different?
That is not going to be impressive to the interviewer. So have some questions ready and know your story going in.
[00:26:33] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:26:33] Speaker B: And don't ask like, why should I come here?
You can ask that after you're admitted.
[00:26:37] Speaker D: Right. You want to ask things like, what was your favorite part? What clubs were you involved in? What, what professor would you recommend? Something to get them excited too.
[00:26:45] Speaker B: And I would add, I think it's useful if you have a friend or family member who's willing to pepper you with some questions just to practice. Like if, you know, have someone, I mean, these questions aren't hard. Just tell them like, ask me to walk you through my resume. And you know, you're. Then you're forced to do it. And I know we do all have a phone in our pocket that could probably make a video. You can make a video of yourself if you want. But I think there's something to be said for doing this, you know, organically with someone.
So. Yeah, absolutely. So we're out of time. I did want to say our panelists are all at their tables out in the other room. So if you, if you want to talk with them and continue to have conversations, you have questions about hbs, Indiana, Kelly Berkeley Haas or Duke Fuqua, please stop by their tables. I'm sure they're happy to talk to you. We still have a little bit time of time, but thank you so much, guys, really appreciate your time. Thank you.
