Episode Transcript
[00:00:18] Speaker A: Welcome to the Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast. I'm your host, Graham Richmond, and this special episode of the show is about an innovative business school making waves in Texas, the SMU Koch School of Business. We've all heard a lot about how corporations are flocking to Texas, how big markets like Dallas are experiencing serious growth in many areas. And SMU has been on the front lines capitalizing on these opportunities. And they've also done some really interesting things in the admissions and career placement side of things, the inputs and outputs, if you will. Before I get ahead of myself and give away too many details, I want to welcome a very special guest to the program who's going to help us talk about careers, connections and the power of the Texas economy. Shelley Heinrich is the Senior Assistant Dean of Career Management and Admissions at SMU Cox. And I'm thrilled that she was available to talk about everything that is happening at SMU Cox. Let me give you a quick bio on Shelley just before we get started here. And you know, some. Some folks may know Shelly because she's been on the show before, but the quick bio is that she joined the staff at SMU Cox in August of 24. Brings 20 years of experience in higher ed, corporate and nonprofit sectors with direct experience working in five business schools. Her respons have included admissions, recruitment, marketing, employer and business development and career services. Shelly's also actively involved with the Graduate Management Admissions Council, also known as GMAC, and has served as faculty for the Admissions Institute for New Professionals for a couple of years now. Shelley previously served as Associate Dean and Managing Director for MBA Admissions and Executive Director of Program Marketing at Georgetown University's McDonough School of Business. And Shelley, it's great to have you back on the show. Yeah, welcome and thanks for making time today.
[00:02:09] Speaker B: Absolutely. Always happy to collaborate with clarinet.
[00:02:13] Speaker A: So I have a number of questions. As you know, I'm kind of fascinated by everything that's been happening down in Texas. And you and I have been talking over the last couple of weeks on and off about some of the great, you know, just like sort of milestones that you all have been hitting down there. So what I wanted to start with though is just tell me a little bit about your role at SMU Cox. And in particular, I'm. I'm really fascinated with the way that the school has fostered meaningful collaboration between admissions and career services. You know, always talk about how sometimes those two offices on campus seem like they're not at all. Like they're completely siloed and not doing anything together. But in Your case at SMU Cox, you're all under one roof and you're kind of overlooking all that. Right, so tell us a little bit about it.
[00:02:53] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So my team oversees, on the graduate admissions side, 13 graduate programs. So admission, marketing, recruitment to get students in the door. And then the other side is the career management side center. So overseeing career management for the MBA, Ms. and BBA students. And it's a really unique structure. It's actually one of the things that attracted me about this role at SMU, Cox, because essentially career management is responsible for helping students to get jobs based on what the admissions team, based on who they recruit and the talent. And so to have these two roles connected really creates a seamless experience for the students and helps to really sell the ROI to prospective students.
[00:03:43] Speaker A: Yeah, and I mean, this is, it's like a really unique structure, but it makes so much sense to me, this idea that, you know, you're kind of linking the, as I said earlier, the input and the output. But tell me a little bit about, like, how does this help students from day one? So let's say I'm applying to SMU Cox, and I'm obviously having to express what my career plan is as a part of the application process. But what happens, like how does the career team kind of get involved and where's the connection happening?
[00:04:08] Speaker B: Absolutely. So, you know, when students are considering business school, their career and ROI are likely in the top few reasons why they choose a school.
And it's important that a school is able to deliver on, you know, helping them to achieve their personal professional goals. So from day one in the application process, the career center is intimately involved. So students apply, they're reviewed by the admissions team. The admissions team does the first interview and if the admissions team likes them, they pass them on actually for a second interview with the career center. And this is for the full time, two year and one year MBA programs. And so then the career center asks them different questions in the admissions team. Right. More focused on their career and their goals and their professional accomplishments. And then when we go into adcom, both the admissions and career team are there having conversations to say, look, are they going to be a great student academically, Are they going to be a great fit with the cohort and culture and can we help them achieve their goals? So they're already students already getting to know the career center before they even get an admissions decision. And then if they're admitted, you know, they've already had that touch point with the career center and they've already Been able to ask questions and then we start working with them before they even set foot on campus. And so, you know, the summer prior to them coming, we're working with them so that they're more career ready on day one. And we've seen employers, you know, notice the evolution of the student quality increase because of this new system.
[00:05:45] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's really. I mean, I think that I feel like our listeners need to know that this is like a radical departure from the way that things are done at most business schools. I mean, it really is. I mean, I know from talking to other business schools and people, people working in careers, I mean, they have no visibility on. They're sort of the admissions team admits a class and it's sort of dumped in the lap of the career office after the fact. And so I love that you guys are collaborating from the get go because, I mean, everyone's working in the same direction, it feels like. So I guess while we're talking about the output and career placement and all that stuff, I wondered if you could comment on how you've been working to increase engagement with employers. And you talked to me a little bit about something called a flywheel effect for better and better MBA placements. Can you explain what that means, how it's working and that sort of thing?
[00:06:35] Speaker B: Absolutely. So first I want to talk a little bit about what we believe makes a strong roi. So first you have to have strong students. So from the admissions standpoint, then we have to have a professional career staff, so people that aren't just career counselors, but that have come from industry.
We also then have to have strong relationships with employers so that when we're looking on how to create opportunities, we have those relationships. A phenomenal, strong curriculum, a rigorous curriculum, a focus on upskilling, and then a great experience. Right. So that as alum, they want to give back. So this flywheel effect, which certainly predates me, but it really looked at, okay a few years ago, if we want to drive the quality and experience and ROI of our students, how do we do that? And you know, first looked at, okay, we have to increase the quality of our incoming students, right? So increase the selectivity, increase the academic preparedness, increase the work experience. That will then lead to them getting better post MBA employment opportunities, which will then lead to fostering even stronger trust and relationship with employers, will increase the rankings potentially and the reputation and the perceived value externally, which will then increase the number of applications so that we can be more selective, so that we can then increase the quality of Students coming in and then the flywheel takes effect. And so that was implemented a few years ago. And we've seen strong ROI on that strategy.
[00:08:14] Speaker A: And you've actually seen increasing application volume. Right. So that's actually happening. So you have this theory of, oh, if we, if we, if we're more selective and people start to get, you know, come in at a higher level of quality, they're getting better jobs, more people are going to want to come here. But you were telling me the other day, right, you guys have now seen more application volume, right?
[00:08:31] Speaker B: Absolutely. Even since 2022, we've seen, I think it's 111% increase in application volume. So, you know, really more than doubled. And if you even go back further than that, and certainly more so, yes, we've seen increased application volume. You know, since 2018, our average GPA for the full time two year has increased to 3.56 from 3.3. The GMAT median 710 from 664. You know, if you look at all the, you know, rankings business week, we've increased 22 spots to number 26. So same with U.S. news, increased 18 spots. So, you know, the strategy, you could say is, is working. And it's also compounded by the fact that Dallas has seen such strong growth from such strong employers as well, thus attracting more students coming to smu.
[00:09:20] Speaker A: Yeah. And so now you're teeing up my next question perfectly. Which is about what's been happening in Texas. So we, as I said at the top of the show, like, there's a lot of companies that have relocated to Texas. And I wondered, like, how are you all leveraging that momentum to create these kind of career opportunities for students?
[00:09:37] Speaker B: Absolutely. So I lived here 20 years ago and was away from Texas for 20 years and came back and I immediately noticed the traffic difference. Not to joke, but no, really, I mean, so I was doing a little bit of research on this growth and Texas now, which is a major financial hub and economic powerhouse in the U.S. i mean, you've even heard of y'all street, you know, Texas Stock Exchange, we now surpass as a state New York in terms of the number of finance and insurance jobs. We now lead the nation in the number of Fortune 500 companies in the state. And if you can imagine, since 2021, over 60 companies have relocated their corporate headquarters here from 17 other states and countries. And so there's massive growth. And I feel like every week I'm hearing about a new kind of company headquarters relocating here. So, you know, SMU Is, you know, has been embedded in the thread of the DFW community. And so when companies are coming here and they're needing to source talent, you know, they're looking to SMU Cox. And so it's, we've definitely benefited from, from the growth here in Dallas.
[00:10:56] Speaker A: So for prospective MBA students, as you said earlier, career outcomes are like a big factor. It's usually at the top of the list when we ask people why are they going to business school? And wondered what are some of the standout industries and roles where Cox MBAs are making an impact? Because now you've been on board for several months now, you probably know where some of those folks who graduated just last year have headed or where do you see SMU grads kind of making an impact?
[00:11:21] Speaker B: Absolutely. And I will say one of the other things that attracted me to SMU Cox, as it always has with business schools, is the city location. If you, and I've said this before, if you're doing an undergraduate program or you know, maybe more of a liberal arts degree, maybe it doesn't matter the city that you are in.
But if you're doing an MBA or a graduate business degree, being in a city and location where you have access to employers and alumni and professional associations is a part of your calculus. It should be and is a part of your roi. So, you know, when we look at our graduates, the full time program and where they are going, it's very similar to a lot of top business schools. So consulting, financial services and real estate, you know, you can imagine why real estate is now booming in the DFW area. And so we have a great Folsom center for real estate. We're also seeing strong output from our sphere center for entrepreneurship. So yeah, graduates trending into those industries, you know, functionally they're looking also similarly consulting, finance, marketing. And I think what we're most proud of this year, which is kind of bucking the trends of a lot of other schools, was that for our 20, 24 graduates. So last May, I can't believe it's already been a year, but 86% of them had a job offer three months post graduation, which was not the case at a lot of schools. And so, you know, and then if you fast forward, you know, six months, even post graduation, we were in the mid-90s. And so I think that just shows the strong output that our students are receiving.
[00:13:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it's really impressive because we, on this show we talk a lot about whenever a school publishes their career placement stats, we always go over it, we have a weekly show where we do that and that definitely is bucking a trend. I mean, you guys are on the up, which is terrific. And I think I feel like applicants often underestimate the power of geography in all of this. You know, I think there's a. It just plays a big role. Speaking of that, I mean, are there some key employer partnerships that SMU Cox has built? How do those translate into job opportunities for students? I mean all these companies have moved to Texas. Are there relationships there that are started to foster?
[00:13:43] Speaker B: Yeah, there are many. I mean, so we've seen relationships, you know, with Walmart and PepsiCo, American Airlines, Access, Kearney, but I think one standout. So McKesson, they relocated to DFW. I think it was in 2021, 2022, a few years ago.
And from the start that we knew that they were relocating to Texas. Our senior leadership really forged a strong relationship with them and now they, we collaborate with them on a lot of custom programs. We work with them to upskill their employers and then now looking at kind of recruiting. So they're a great example. But with the increase of the student quality that we've seen, we're placing students in very similar companies as all of the top brands.
[00:14:36] Speaker A: So there's also some other things happening. Right. You have a new president coming on board as well as a new dean. And these are folks coming from pretty high power institutions with great experience. So I know a lot of companies have been coming to the Dallas area and there's been this momentum. But tell me about a little bit of the momentum happening within SMU in terms of leadership.
[00:14:55] Speaker B: Absolutely. So we're extremely excited to welcome Dr. Jay Hartzell, who will be coming as SMU's new president on June 1st. He, he previously served as the president of University of Texas at Austin and even prior to that he was the dean of the McCombs School of Business.
Additionally, we have Dean Todd Milbourne who will be starting as our SMU COX Dean on June 1st as well. And he's coming from the top ranked Olin School of Business at Washu in St. Louis. And so it's really exciting to have the combination of these two individuals that are going to be now forging the next direction not only of SMU as a university, but Cox as a school. And so we're very excited. I think those are two of very many different things that are happening here that are showing strong momentum at smu.
[00:15:49] Speaker A: Yeah, it's exciting.
So in addition to you mentioned new president, new dean, we've talked about companies, all the companies coming into Texas and the Dallas area specifically too. But SMU Cox is preparing candidates to go join these companies and in many cases to go elsewhere in the world, correct?
[00:16:06] Speaker B: Absolutely. So students are, yes, enjoying the fact that major companies, again over 62 have come to Dallas.
So providing opportunities certainly for students to work in DFW in Texas. But these are global multinational companies. So we're preparing students not only to work in Dallas, but beyond as well.
[00:16:29] Speaker A: Okay, tell me a little bit about this. So what sets SMU Cox apart in today's competitive MBA landscape? And you talk about, you know, top 25 type schools. I mean there are a lot of schools in that group. But like how do you see the reputation and reach of the Cox MBA evolving over the next say five to 10 years?
[00:16:47] Speaker B: Absolutely. So I've actually had students that I've interviewed because I still interview, I love interviewing applicants. And so I actually had a student sitting in my office a couple of weeks ago who said, I know it's, I can see what's happening at SMU and I want to be a part of it. I can see this momentum. Like I've been in Dallas for a very long time and I want to ride the wave of the smu, you know, increase in prominence. And so, you know, what sets us apart, you know, certainly the growing momentum. The city of Dallas, we were very much in embedded in a world class business ecosystem. The number of companies, corporate headquarters as we've talked about are here and it's very dynamic. We also really look for real time feedback from companies which then help shape the curriculum. A business school shouldn't be stagnant. A business school should be constantly evolving to meet needs of employers. And so this real time feedback led to our recent next gen curriculum update which focused on upskilling. So data driven decision making, leadership, navigating complexity and ambiguity.
Every MBA and Ms. Program now includes some type of experiential learning. So a lot of people do our global experiences, data analytics, leadership development. And now of course we are going to be embedding AI into our curriculum. Right. Because again employers, we know that students are going to need it and so we have to train students in that way.
So that'll be one, you know, I think continuous innovation to meet the industry demand. So we look at what programs are needed. You know, we just launched and have our first cohort and Masters in Real Estate which launched in fall 2024. We thought, and we're targeting I think about 25 students. That was our target enrollment for the first class, we got over 45. We have, you know, so it was, it was wild. The amount of students that we got. We could have actually increased the cohort, but we had to, we had to cap it. And this shows this, you know, strong real estate industry. It's one of the top five markets in the U.S. we're also just launched and we'll start this coming fall in Ms. Energy and sustainability management.
We have a great McGuire center for Energy. And so we also see that there's a huge energy transition that's happening. And so therefore the industry needs people that are skilled. And so we're seeing a lot of interest there.
We had to renovate our business building. Certainly, if your listeners haven't had a chance to visit it, I welcome you here. I actually had to give myself commuting time anytime I was going anywhere. The first couple months when I was here, I had to leave six or seven minutes early to a meeting because I kept getting lost. The building is wildly big, but you know, it's $140 million capital campaign that renovated facilities and now it's top tier.
So we're constantly evolving as a good business school should be.
[00:19:47] Speaker A: Yeah, it sounds like it. And now I was going to originally ask you a question about applicants considering the program. Like what advice would you give them to maximize their experience and their kind of career opportunities? But I guess I want to add something to that, which is what about, I mean, it sounds like it's competitive and increasingly competitive to get in. I mean, you're getting more and more applications, the standards keep going up. I mean, you talked about these high GPAs and GMATs and things. So any advice on the admissions side, like what can someone do to be competitive? And then obviously if they're lucky to be admitted, how do they maximize their time in the program?
[00:20:18] Speaker B: Yeah, there is a real focus on selectivity here. So because of the multi tier application process, multi interview, we are looking to create a smaller class size of really high quality students. So that was based on this kind of flywheel strategy that was created a few years ago. And because it's worked, you know, we're holding steady. And so, you know, I would say for applicants considering, first of all, refine your career goals. I think especially in an economy like we've seen in the last couple of years, it's really important to understand, yes, what are your priority career goals and more specifically, you know, what kind of companies are you targeting? What are those job titles that you're looking for? I think when I Sit down with an applicant and they seem a little bit scattered or all over the place. My first thought is maybe, you know, you need to sit for a year and think of, kind of think about and really refine. Is this the right path for you? Because we want people jumping in from the summer day one, but really day zero jumping in to get prepared so that they can be successful in internship and recruiting. So refining your career goals would be one. How do you do that? Obviously talk with our alum, talk with our current students, talk with your peers to understand what it is that you are looking to do and then also have a plan B as well. So you know, know what are those other options out there that you would be interested in? The other is prepare academically. Right. Because you don't want to be so overwhelmed with classes and the rigor of the classes, because the classes are rigorous here, that then you're spending all of your time on academics. Right. Because then you're going to miss out on all the career recruitment activities, you're going to miss out on all the co curricular activities and those latter two things are going to make you successful in the eyes of employers. So prepare academically. So what does that mean? Like the summer prior, make sure you're brushing up on your basic stats skills, your accounting terminology, your basic finance terminology. Even if you did well in undergrad, maybe it's been six or seven years and you just need a refresher.
[00:22:27] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:22:28] Speaker B: And then I would say third, begin your network early. Right. So start connecting with those rising second years. Start understanding what clubs you may want to join.
One of the things that's been so eye opening coming to SMU is the power of the network here. I can't even describe how much, you know, the SMU alumni are so embedded in, giving back so generous to the school and in such phenomenal positions at major companies. It's like something I've never. And so, you know, beginning your network early.
[00:23:05] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, that's great advice. And actually, I mean, just good advice generally for anyone thinking about business school. Like know your career plan and yeah, start that networking process early in the game.
Is there anything else that you wanted to share with us about, you know, why now's a good time to be looking at an MBA at smu. Cox.
[00:23:24] Speaker B: Yeah. I think you always want to make sure that you are making yourself most marketable and indispensable in your industry, in what you want to do. Right. And that means that you always need to be one step ahead of your peers in skills and Network and experiences coming back and doing an MBA will keep you relevant with the challenges of what's happening in the world. Not just, you know, not just corporate world, but in, you know, macroeconomics and what's happening, you know, politically, what's happening in nonprofits. It will keep you up to date on real world cases. It will give you a chance to kind of reset through an internship, maybe try a different skill.
And it will give you a chance to really focus on expanding your network and focus on improving yourself. So I've always said that an MBA will never depreciate over time. It's one of those aspects that you can invest in yourself and appreciate your skills over time. And so, you know, there's always. There can always be an excuse on why you shouldn't go back to school. Right. You can think of hundreds of them. But once you go through a program like at SMU Cox, you'll look back and be so grateful that you are now at a different level. The other thing that I would say is there's an ecosystem of employers that recruit from top business schools. And so if you're just trying to change careers on your own outside of your business school, you're just kind of responding to things on LinkedIn, going to company websites. But when you go to a top business school, employers are coming specifically to recruit students. And so you open the doors and are exposed to opportunities that you may not be just if you were going at it alone. And then you have, you know what, Hundreds of new LinkedIn connections all of a sudden for warm introductions.
[00:25:23] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:25:23] Speaker B: So it's always a good time to invest in yourself, and it's specifically a great time to come to Dallas.
[00:25:31] Speaker A: Yeah, that all makes sense to me. And I, you know, just looking back, I know you have an MBA yourself. So do I. I mean, it's definitely. It's an investment that has this, like, exponential impact on things. And yeah, it's so much more. You know, I'm thinking when you're talking about the connections you make instantly, I mean, these people become like a family, you know, over time. And it's just. Yeah, it's. It's such a worthwhile endeavor. And. Yeah, so I'm glad that you speak to that and also to. Yeah, obviously everything happening in Dallas. Shelly, I want to thank you so much for your time today. It's always a pleasure to connect with you.
Everyone, stay tuned. We have more episodes of the Clear Admit MBA Admissions podcast forthcoming. And please remember to rate and review the show. Wherever you listen, it.
