[00:00:16] Speaker A: Welcome to the clear admit MBA admissions podcast. I'm your host, Graham Richmond, and this special episode of the show will take a deep dive into an area of management education that doesn't get as much attention as it should. Investment management in putting this episode together, I was actually reminded that when I first started to think about going to business school and admittedly knew very little about management education, I assumed that one of the main things that you learn in business school was how to invest in the stock market. And it turns out that, like stock picking or investment management isn't actually the bulk of the curriculum at any leading business school. But there is at least one MBA program that offers an incredible opportunity in this domain, and that's UNC Keenan Flagler and their center for Excellence in Investment Management. As such, for today's show, I'm really excited to have two special guests from UNC Keenan Flagler to talk about this. So let me just tell you a little bit about each of our guests and then we'll bring them on air here. First off, we have Pramita Saha and she is the executive director for the center for Excellence in Investment Management at UNC Kenan Flagler. And she directs the day to day activities for the center, does long range and annual operating plans, secures funding, does a lot. Before joining UNC back in 2019, Permita worked in finance. She held positions at Standard Chartered Bank, Goldman Sachs, Citi, and BBVA. So a lot of experience and expertise. Welcome to the show, Premeda.
[00:01:45] Speaker B: Thanks so much, Graham. It is great to be here.
[00:01:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm just so thrilled to have you on to help talk about investment management and all the offerings at UNC. Second, I wanted to also introduce Jesus Fernandez, who is currently a second year MBA student at UNC Keenan Flagler, pursuing a capital markets and investments concentration at the school, and he's also the president of the school's investment management club. Jesus was born in a small town in Texas and grew up in Mexico, then returned to the US to join the Marine Corps for five years before transitioning from military to business school at Keenan Flagler. Welcome, Jesus.
[00:02:25] Speaker C: Hey Graham, thanks. It's nice to be here.
[00:02:27] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you. So I always love when we can do these podcasts where we have kind of, you know, someone from the administration or faculty who can speak to program offerings and things. But then, you know me, I love to talk to current students. So it's great to have you, Jesus, so that we can hear kind of directly from someone who's living this experience of learning about investment management.
So why don't we start? Pramita, I just wanted to give you an opportunity in case there's something that I left out. Is there anything else that you think our listeners need to know about you or your role as we get going here?
[00:02:58] Speaker B: So thanks, Graham, for that kind introduction. I just wanted to add. So, yes, I spend about 50% of my time leading the center and the other 50% teaching. And I'm really passionate about just making finance and investments really accessible to students from all walks of life, as well as experiential learning. And what we're doing at UNC just really speaks to me personally, because even in my own educational journey, I was able to break into this world of finance and investments, which previously I had no idea about. And that just changed the trajectory of my life. So it's really fun for me to bring that to students. So I have a lot of fun doing that. I hope I make it really fun for the students, but we'll see what Jesus has to say about that.
[00:03:48] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
[00:03:49] Speaker C: All right.
[00:03:49] Speaker A: So, Jesus, I want to just give you that same opportunity. Is there anything that you wanted our listeners to know? I mean, you've had a really interesting background in terms of, you know, you did that classic transition from military to business school, and now I presume you had no experience in investment management prior to. So you're doing all these switches.
[00:04:04] Speaker C: Yeah. Graham. I mean, basically, like you mentioned, you know, those five years in the Marine Corps, I was an electronics technician. So I was fixing and radios, satellites and other communications equipment for use in the field. So as you can imagine, I had absolutely no experience in finance or business in general. So the MBA really was the perfect avenue for me to explore careers after the military. And the funny thing is, I applied to UNC because my wife was attending college there. That was the only school that I applied to. But once I got in and I saw what investment management was all about and what UNC had to offer in terms of investment management, I realized I couldn't have made a better choice.
[00:04:43] Speaker A: So I want to put you on the spot. We're going to get right into it here. I want to put you on the spot and ask you, because I just always think about people applying to business school who maybe don't have all the answers when they're just starting on this journey, like many of our listeners. And so I wanted you to. Can you just tell me, what is investment management in plain English? So no finance jargon, if you can do it.
[00:05:02] Speaker C: Sure. So, first of all investment management is not investment banking. Investment bankers essentially do two things right. They help companies raise money, or they help companies acquire or merge with other companies.
Investment management is very different. The easiest way to think about it is you want to retire at some point, right? And to do that, you have to have money saved. Let's say you need $1 million. Well, you can put a certain amount of money under your mattress every month, and then by the time you're 65, pull it out and hope that you have a million dollars. Or you can invest that money every month in the stock market, for example, and get a return on your investment that will allow your money to grow over time and make your retirement plan easier.
So the investment management industry exists precisely so people can invest their money and make a return over time. Obviously, you know, this is a very trivial example, but this is what it all comes down to. Companies need capital to operate, and people need to invest their money somewhere. So there's a market where both these parties can come together and fulfill their needs. And investment management professionals operate in this market, receiving people's money, investing it with a strategy to achieve these people's goals. And these people can be, you know, regular individuals like you and me. Or it can be institutions like UNC with its endowment. It can be governments. It can be companies pension plans, etcetera. And there's many different asset classes that one can invest in. It can be the typical public market, investing in, like, stocks or bonds. It can be investing in the private market, like private equity, private credit, venture capital, all these things. It can be helping high net worth individuals organize their finances and deciding how to invest, which is what we call private wealth management.
Or it can also be, you know, working at an institution like UNC's endowment, helping allocate UNC's capital to various strategies. So, as you can see, you know, investment management is a very broad industry with multiple avenues for people. But in the end, it all comes down to there's people that have money, and there's companies that need money. Investment management professionals help the people that have money invested with companies that can take that money and generate a return.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: Okay. Wow. That is, like, super well said. I feel like that we should. Well, I'm glad we're recording this. Right?
All right, so I want to now turn to Parmita and get a sense of, like, what are the investment management offerings at UNC, Keenan Flagler, and what makes your program special in this domain? I mean, I know that there's a lot of different programs, programming, that's on offer at UNC. And that sort of helps you stand apart. But I just would love to hear a little bit more about this.
[00:07:41] Speaker B: So, just taking a step back, what are we trying to do? We inspire a passion for investing within our students. And how do we do that? Through real world experiences. So we're all about creating a cutting edge program that's relevant to industry. So we do believe that the academic foundations are important. We have world class faculty and they build a solid foundation. They incorporate the practical real world examples and case studies into their teaching. But I think what sets us apart, like what our superpower, is that on top of that, we overlay this holistic, experiential two year program. And it starts even before the students have started their MBA program. So we start with something called the fundamental investing practicum. Colloquially, we also call it picking stocks in the real world, and it is taught by a buy side portfolio manager. And through this class, we bring in investment professionals as guest speakers, mentors, mock interviewers. And so our students are just ready to go, whether it's for investment competitions, whether it's for recruiting at large. And then that leads into the Alpha Challenge. So we host the Alpha Challenge, which is the preeminent investment pitch competition. And it's not just a competition. We really like to think of it as a one stop shop where students can showcase their investing acumen, they can build great relationships with investment professionals, and they can interview and land those dream jobs and internships that they want to. So it's just a fabulous experience. And then this year, actually, in celebration of the 20th anniversary, we are launching a brand new event called investment Management for all, and all are welcome to apply. And the thought behind it was that the industry can just seem intimidating from the outside, especially, say, for women, for underrepresented minorities. And we really wanted to break down those barriers and show all that there are pathways. And as Jesus alluded to earlier, there's a lot of variety in this space, and we firmly believe that there is a place for everybody who wants to pursue this. So, yeah, that's the fall, which is already pretty busy. But just to wrap up in the spring, many of our first year MBA students, they take prime. So this is an experiential class, and they get a chance to work with an investment firm and do a deep dive, a project just to get depth in that space. And then through the weekly classes, they also get breadth. And then in their second year, we wrap up with our Capstone class. It's called the applied investment management class. The students manage about $2 million. It's more of a public investing style class, but then we also have various student run private equity funds. So all this is just a terrific immersive experience. So that's the two years.
[00:10:58] Speaker A: Wow. Okay. Yeah. So there's a wealth of programming, clearly. I guess I wanted to understand. Jesus, you're the head of the investment management club at UNC, and I just wondered, could you speak to the role that that club plays on campus? And how does it intersect with some of the offerings that Premeda has just mentioned?
[00:11:15] Speaker C: Sure. So, first of all, you know, we support everything that Premedita just mentioned, which is a lot, but we also have very specific initiatives to help students break into the industry. So the first thing we have is we run a weekly career labs. So in these career labs, first year students meet with us. We're typically the second year students running the club, and we really guide them on their journey from, you know, explaining the industry, explaining the various career options, all the way to helping them craft their pitches, their resumes, cover letters, you know, help them preparing for interviews, applications, all of that. And we actually assign a mentor to each student to facilitate that one on one interaction with a person that was, you know, in their shoes just one year before. And that is very helpful for the students. We also organize three career treks, two in the summer and one in the spring. Well, two in the fall, one in the spring. And we basically reach out to alumni and friends of the program across various cities like New York City, Boston, Chicago, Charlotte, Raleigh. And we set up company visits and happy hours where we can take the first year students and have them network with these professionals, learn more about the industry. You know, just start getting immersed in the investment management environment. And the last thing we do is that we actually have a massive role in planning the Alpha challenge as well. The IM club here handles all the student interactions for the Alpha challenge. So if you think about, you know, reaching out to investment clubs at all these other top MBA programs, inviting them to the competition, coordinating with with all these students across schools so that we can really make the Alpha challenge as good and competitive as we can. And, you know, obviously, in addition to supporting those first year students that are coming in, being involved in the club is also an amazing way for us to just get access to these industry professionals and continue to network and learn from them.
[00:13:09] Speaker A: Okay, so you're teeing up my next question perfectly, which is, I wanted to learn more about this Alpha town. So UNC King and Flagger hosts an event about investing and students from all around the US or even beyond, this is top MBA. Students from everywhere are coming to UNC to join this conference. I just wondered, this was something you went through last year, premedita. This is something that you are managing. This is a big part of the program. Maybe for me to start with some of the basics and then I can't wait to hear a little bit more also about how Jesus experienced this.
[00:13:44] Speaker B: Happy to. So, yes. So the Alpha challenge has become the preeminent investment pitch competition. It really is the destination for investment management recruiting. So we get the top students from the top 20 MBA programs to come to Chapel Hill, and then we also draw about 70 plus buy side firms. And honestly, no other competition comes close. And so we'll host both an equity and credit competitions. And every single team gets an investment professional as a mentor. And it's just not just a competition. We also have speed networking sessions, and we can have one based on the public side. We have another one based on the private side. We have some really fun social events, and the students can get to meet the investment professional judges. And then we top it off with an interview day so that students can formally interview and then land that dream job or that dream internship. But, yeah, like you. Let's get the real story. Would love to hear from Jesus. His team actually placed second in the credit competition last year.
[00:14:58] Speaker A: So take us through this, Sezeus, tell us a little bit more about, you know, the down in the trenches competing.
[00:15:03] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, if you would have told me a year ago that I was going to be standing on a podium next to the three top investment students from Chicago, Wharton and Columbia, I would have thought you crazy, right?
But the reality is that UNC does an amazing job at preparing its students to craft high quality investment pitches. And we've demonstrated that we can compete at the highest level. We have consistently placed in the top three spots across both equity and credit. And so the opportunities that the Alpha challenge provides, it really can't be overstated. You have hundreds of investment professionals in one place, all wanting to talk to you about your pitch, all wanting to get to know you. And, you know, ultimately they want to interview you for your summer internship, right? I believe I had eleven interviews in that one single day, which is an amazing opportunity, especially for somebody like me, which, you know, no experience and just trying to break into this industry. So I really can't think of a better place for somebody that is looking to break into the industry than the alpha challenge.
[00:16:10] Speaker A: Okay, so. So this relates to the alpha challenge, but also goes beyond. So one of the things both of you have said to me off air is that the network and alumni support in this domain at UNC is really special. And I just wondered, why is this the case? And so, maybe, premedita, we can start with you. But, yeah, just talk about the alumni network and their role in kind of making investment management great.
[00:16:32] Speaker B: At UNC, community is just part of the Carolina way, and it directly impacts our positive student outcomes. So the Alpha challenge is a perfect example. So it started 20 years ago. And why? Because the two founding alums couldn't get into another competition, and now it's turned into the preeminent investment pitch competition. And the only way that could have happened was thanks to our alums. And now with this new investment management for all event, you know, that's going to amplify. We host an IM alumni event in April. Last year, we had 100 attendees, and we're just getting it off the ground. And then Jesus alluded to this earlier. We visit the various cities and we host professional networking events. So all these events basically culminate in creating this really close knit community. And then on top of that, there are more structured ways, whether it's through our investment management board or our council. And so our alums are just really passionate about helping our students succeed. And so it goes even beyond our alums. We have so many investment professionals, professionals who previously had absolutely no ties to UNC, but then they come back year after year for the Alpha challenge, and they're rooting for us. And so this larger, you know, powerful industry network? It's just really special. It really makes our program such a gem.
[00:18:04] Speaker A: And we know, I mean, that's so key with business school and the power of the network, we see that kind of time and time again. But, Jesus, I do want to ask you, like, what, what has your interaction been like with grads of the program and just this community, broader community that permit is alluding to folks who just come back every year for the competition. I mean, you've obviously, you've had your summer internship, you've landed a post MBA job. Any comments on interaction with alums in this domain?
[00:18:32] Speaker C: Sure. Yeah. So people refer to it as the Carolina way. And it's something that is a broad reputation of the school as a whole and of the MBA program, and it obviously spills into the investment management and track here. Alumni are some of the friendliest people I've met. They were extremely helpful to me. And from my perspective, when I first started my MBA program, I didn't even know what I didn't know.
I needed somebody to guide me through what are the most important things that I needed to learn within those first six months of my MBA to really be successful at recruiting. Investment management is an industry that attracts curious people that want to continue to learn throughout their whole lives because there's so much out there to learn. You really, really never stop learning. But when you have such a short timeline, you really need to know what those key things are so that you can focus and hit those things first. So this is where having such a strong alumni network was crucial to me, because, you know, these are people that have all the experience and can really help, you know, what those key things are to focus on early on so that you can be successful. Successful.
[00:19:40] Speaker A: Okay. Excellent. Yeah, it's definitely. It sounds like I actually had a chance to watch some of the videos from the Alpha challenge that are up on the website. And yeah, you can just see all these alums coming back and that's probably like a great moment in the calendar year for them. I mean, they just seem to be really enjoying their time interacting with the students and so appreciate you both shedding light on that. Sounds really fantastic. One of the things that Premedita mentioned earlier is this course that's called prime. Can you tell me a little bit more about what that was like as a student and maybe, I don't know, share a highlight from that?
[00:20:15] Speaker C: Sure. So during the spring, I worked with a sell side research firm in New York. I was doing research for an initiation report on a stock, and it was a great learning experience. They first walked me through the process of how they build their financial models from scratch. We talked to the company's CEO thinking through all the possible scenarios for the stock and everything. And this experience was actually crucial for me to land my summer internship at American Century investments. And broader than that, just my own experience being part of the prime class, it gives you such a broad perspective on the investment management industry because you're listening to all these other people's experiences working with firms in multiple avenues of the investment management industry. We had people working in private equity shops, we had people working with quant firms. And so when you're coming to this class every week and listening to the experience of somebody that's doing something completely different, you really can get, you know, it's an amazing learning experience.
[00:21:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And I guess, I mean, so just to make sure I understand the way that this is set up, the alpha talent happens at the end of the first year, and the prime course is kind of an ongoing thing. Is that correct?
[00:21:31] Speaker C: So I can maybe talk to this. So the Alpha challenge, you're correct. It is at the end of December, and that entire first semester, students are essentially preparing for the Alpha challenge. Right. There's a ton of things going on, but everything ultimately all culminates in the Alpha challenge, which is why we call it the Super bowl right now. Prime. It starts in January. So in the spring of your. As you finish the Alpha challenge, usually sometime in November, December, they'll happen this sort of pairing process where, you know, students will indicate interests into specific verticals of the industry. On the other hand, you know, Permita will do an amazing job at getting all these firms and alumni that are interested in, you know, giving back and helping students learn as well. And so by January, that's when people usually know what they're going to do. The class starts, and then you go from there for the spring.
[00:22:29] Speaker A: Okay, got it. Okay. Yeah. So that makes a lot of sense. So I guess, moving on, I did want to hear a little bit more about this holistic approach because I know some MBA programs do offer kind of investment management, but it's like sort of very siloed in one style of management, et cetera, of investing. Right. So I just wondered if you could talk a bit more about the approach that UNC deploys here.
And how does this help students open doors for potential roles post MBA? So let's start with you, Jesus, because you've been, again, on the front lines here and you're making this transition. But then I also want to hear if permit has anything to say on this one, too.
[00:23:09] Speaker C: Sure. From my perspective, coming in as a first year student, I noticed somewhat of a funnel approach. And what I mean by that, you want to start broad. You want to look at the entire finance industry because people tend to come to the MBA without knowing exactly what they want to do. I know that was the case for me. And so we start by broadly talking about finance, and then we narrow it down specifically to investment management. But even within investment management, you know, you still have all these different avenues, like public investments, private investments, allocation, quant. And so UNC has the breadth of offering so that we can capture all those people that are interested in IM and so that they can, they dont have to pigeonhole themselves very early on. They can explore, but as they go along, we also have the resources so that as the semester progresses and people understand exactly where they want to land, they can then really focus on it and then just learn as much as possible.
[00:24:04] Speaker A: Okay. Pramita, anything you want to add to that? Because I know when, you know, weve had some other conversations, and I know youre particularly proud of this aspect of the fact that you guys, you know, it's not just one style that you're, as Jesus is pointing out, it's this broad thing at the beginning and you have this ability and the bandwidth to do it. But any thoughts that you want to add on that?
[00:24:23] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I think Jesus nailed it. The one thing I wanted to mention was that I think some students find investment management a little intimidating because of the lack of structure in the recruiting process. And I think we are really trying to add a, you know, some more structure through our programs, through our network, and we allow students to explore all these different areas within investment management. We've been talking about the variety and it really does exist. And then we try to nurture, you know, the students strengths and their interests and then guide them onto roadmaps that make sense for them. So we hope that that really supports their journey.
[00:25:09] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I wanted to stay with you and ask you a question about this new initiative, investment management for all. Tell us a bit more about how are you bringing folks under a tent that has often been very male and very white? That's investment management. And even, I think you could probably say, finance overall, what are you doing to kind of bring everyone under the tent?
[00:25:33] Speaker B: So, as we've talked about before, we really believe that there is a place for every single person within investment management. And that's what we're trying to showcase through this event. So we have, you know, just a whole host of different types of firms coming to this event, whether it's William Blair, Diamond Hill, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, T. Rowe Price. And the idea is that this is going to be a one of a kind type of event. It just doesn't exist. And we start really big picture and delve into what it's like to actually be a woman or an underrepresented minority in the investment space. And then we break down the industry into, say, six to eight verticals and allow our attendees to explore and talk to investment professionals from different areas. And then the idea is to have lunch where our prospective MBA students can actually talk to not just UNC MBA students, but also MBA students from other top schools. And then the idea is that after, say, the morning of exploration, we can delve into maybe three or four areas that really pique their interest. And so that could be different for different areas. Say, if you're interested more in buy side research that could be getting coached on an actual pitch by an investment professional. And if you just want to observe, that's perfect. Fine, too. Or it could mean, you know, walking through a case study for private wealth. Or it could be hearing a presentation about impact investing. Again, lots of variety, something for everybody. And just to wrap everything up, we're going to have our own admissions team there, and they will be happy to provide, you know, detailed advice on how to craft, like, the perfect application. So it should be really fun. And, and hopefully your listeners will apply. And we'll see you in Chapel Hill in December.
[00:27:33] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think it is interesting because when you look at
[email protected], comma, when you look at people posting their profiles or looking, they're trying to decide where to go to business school or just pitching their profile, it's a less common thing to see someone saying they want to do asset management or investment management.
So I think there's a little bit of a herd mentality. Sometimes people get swept up in the, oh, you have to be a consultant or maybe an investment banker, as Jesus was talking about, if you go to business school. So I think it's great that you guys are not only providing these resources for the students, but also for prospective candidates to help them broaden their horizons and gain access to this kind of thing. All right, so I have a question, because when I was an undergrad, I was studying a very qualitative degree. And so I have a question for both of you. Really. I guess we'll start with Jesus in the thick of it. But if I'm not a finance or quant person, pre MBA, can I do a career switch and get into investment management? I mean, it seems like a big leap, but I mean, you're doing it. So tell us a little bit about that.
[00:28:38] Speaker C: Yeah. Graham. And now that you say it, I can really relate to you. I studied philosophy for my undergrad major. And so I think this is where UNC truly shines. You know, other schools, they might send more people to investment management on sort of an absolute basis. But if you look closely, what you'll see is a lot of times people have these sort of perfect backgrounds, right? Two years of investment banking, two years of private equity, elite college, whatever, right? What UNC excels at is helping people like me, you know, who didn't have a background in this, but was extremely passionate about the subject and willing to learn, willing to put in the effort. And UNC serves as that springboard that career switchers need so from my personal experience, you know, I can tell you it is absolutely possible to do a career switch into IM if you have the right resources, if you have the right people to help you along the way. And UnC has all of that. And it is up to the student then to just come in, put in the work, talk to people and earn your spot in this industry.
[00:29:43] Speaker A: Yeah. And premita, this is perfect for you. But Im thinking about what you said earlier, which is that you have them starting on this journey even before they arrive. So it's really a full two years of programming, which again, we don't see at other schools. A lot of schools, it's like, oh, in your second year, you might be able to specialize in that. So tell us a little bit more here. Is everything Jesus has said true? I could transition without having the background in Quan, etcetera.
[00:30:07] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. And that's what we take a lot of pride in, just being able to get our career switchers from zero to 100 very quickly. And I think the result show, I mean, our students are placing in national investment competitions. They place consistently at the Alpha challenge, you know, just going head to head and often beating, you know, the top finance schools. And so, yes, absolutely, for career switchers. But I will also add that we are seeing students who have a background in investment management come to our program and they are getting a lot of value from our program. So we're really proud of our program and what we can do for all types of students.
[00:30:50] Speaker A: That's excellent. All right, so I know we're kind of running out of time here, but I did want to give each of you a chance to kind of add to the discussion as we wrap things up. Pramita, anything else that you wanted to share about this program?
[00:31:01] Speaker B: I appreciate the opportunity and just wanted to say, you know, investment management as an industry, it really is this hidden gem that a lot of students don't think about. And we think our program really stands out as a shining example. So we're really hopeful that, you know, this conversation has demystified, you know, both the industry and our program. And so thank you so much for the opportunity. Thanks to those of you who are listening, and we really look forward to meeting you soon.
[00:31:31] Speaker A: Excellent, Jesus, how about you? Anything you want to add?
[00:31:34] Speaker C: Yeah, you know, again, thank you so much, Graham. And in closing, I would just like to say, you know, there's a top MBA ranking and UNC is in the top 20. So it's a great school, but I really believe if you were to have an investment management specific ranking. UNC is more like, you know, top five, top ten. Right. So if you're a student interested in investment management, I really believe UNC should be high up on your list.
[00:31:58] Speaker A: Yeah. And you're making a point that we emphasize a lot on this podcast, which is that, you know, there are rankings or general rankings. Right. But if you know what you want to do, everything changes. Right. Because each school has its specializations. And I'm convinced after having this discussion with both of you that there is a ton on offer at UNC Keenan Flagler in this domain. So I really appreciate you both shedding light on it. I guess I need to get that money out from under my mattress and do something else with it.
But in any event, really appreciate you both making time. I've learned a ton, and it sounds like what's great for our listeners is that there's even programming that they can get involved in right away with this investment management for all initiative.
Sounds like there's a lot on offer, so appreciate you both making time.
Yeah. Just really, it's great to have you both.
[00:32:45] Speaker B: Thank you so much.
[00:32:46] Speaker C: Thank you so much, Graham. Appreciate it.
[00:32:48] Speaker A: All right, so stay tuned, everyone. That's gonna be a wrap on this special episode. Thanks for listening, and please remember to rate and review the show wherever you listen. And stay tuned for more episodes each and every week.
