Episode Transcript
[00:00:15] Speaker A: Welcome to the clear admit MBA admissions podcast. I'm Graham Richmond, and for this special episode of the show, we're going to hear from a panel of four admissions directors about the who, what, why, where, when, et cetera, of pursuing an MBA. And actually, the audio you're gonna hear comes from a panel that clear admit organized for our big MBA fair out in Chicago. And we managed to record it so that those of you who are unable to join us in person can still get up to speed on everything that went on. As I said, this session tackles a number of basic facts and tips about the MBA degree, ranging from why you should get an MBA to when is the right time, how to figure out what schools to apply to, and much more. And it features the following panelists, I'm.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: Really excited about this.
[00:01:01] Speaker A: It was such a great session. We had Eddie Asbe, who's the executive director of admissions and scholarship at Cornell Johnson. We had Dana Fernandez, who's the senior associate director of MBA admissions at Harvard Business school. We had Matthew Ganderson, who's a managing director for full time and global MBA over at Michigan Ross. And we also had Lindsey Lloyd, who's the executive director for MBA admissions at NYU Stern. So, great group. A great discussion. I moderated the session, so you will hear my voice as well. But without further ado, let's give it a listen.
[00:01:36] Speaker B: Hey, everyone. How's everybody doing? I will say it's, like, not fun to be inside when it's gorgeous out there. But at minimum, we have amazing windows, so you can admire the weather outside. So, this is our first panel at the clear admit MBA fair.
And this one is. I'm gonna ask questions that you all probably would not really have the guts to. To ask the admissions folks. Cause you don't wanna seem like you don't know enough about getting an MBA. So you can just think of me as asking the questions that you probably wanna ask, but don't wanna waste people's time or make them feel like you don't know the answers that you should know. So let me just start by introducing our panelists. So, first off, we have Lindsey Lloyd from Nyu Stern. Welcome. We also have Eddie Aspi from Cornell Johnson.
Matt Ganderson from Michigan Ross. And Dana Fernandez from Harvard Business School.
So, can I get a show of hands? How many of you are thinking about applying to business school in the next cycle to start in the fall of 25?
So most of you, is anyone currently applying?
No? Anybody after 25? Yeah. Okay, cool. All right, thanks for that. So we're going to start with, a really simple question for Lindsay, which is, who goes to business school? And do I need to have studied business as an undergraduate to be able to go to business school for an MBA?
[00:03:02] Speaker C: So all sorts of people go to business school and know you don't need a business degree in undergrad. So we certainly have folks who have done an undergraduate degree in business, but we also have economics, STEM fields, liberal arts, history, I think you were a history major?
[00:03:22] Speaker B: Yeah, I was art history.
[00:03:24] Speaker C: And we have people from the military, we have people from Teach for America, all sorts of backgrounds that come to the MBA, either to sort of enhance their business knowledge if they're already in a corporate role, or to make a transition potentially if they were coming from something like the military or a nonprofit type role.
[00:03:45] Speaker B: Yeah. And this is one of my favorite things about the MBA, is that it's super versatile, coming in. Like, you can come from kind of any background, as Lindsey points out, and then also you can go off and do so many different things. So unlike, say, law school or medical school, where there's only really one thing you're probably going to do after those types of programs, the MBA is really versatile. Eddie, I want to turn to you and ask you a question that I know I wanted to ask when I was applying to business school and always was kind of afraid to ask, is, like, what exactly do you study in business school, particularly that first year? Like what we would call the core curriculum. So if you could walk us through a little of that.
[00:04:18] Speaker D: Yeah, absolutely. So when I think about, or of course, when I think of, you know, what our students go through, especially in that first year, you know, by getting an MBA, you're looking for those basic business fundamentals. All right, so many of you, once again, as Lindsey had mentioned, you know, what we see in our classes are students who are coming from so many different backgrounds, but you want to have those basic business fundamentals, whether it is standard accounting courses, finance type courses, you know, I think about what our students go through, operations and marketing courses, etcetera. You have to think about it and businesses in every industry in so many different areas. And what we want to do is make sure that you walk away with the necessary skill sets that you need to be successful, but also thinking about how transferable the MBA can be.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: And also, just while you're on this topic, I know that the traditional MBA is sort of a two year thing. The first year are these core subjects that you've mentioned, like marketing, finance, accounting, etcetera. But there are other formats, right? Besides just the two year. And I'm asking you because I know Cornell has like, a one year tech MBA.
[00:05:32] Speaker D: Absolutely. So what I would say is continue to do your research on which program is the best fit for you. You'll probably see many candidates looking at a two year traditional MBA program, but also there are executive MBA programs.
As Graham had mentioned, we have a tech MBA program, and I believe stern as well has a one year tech MBA program as well. You'll start to see from different programs the various options that are out there. I know that some of our MBA programs might be more specialized.
I know data analytics has become a hot area over the last couple years. So masters in just management type programs as well. So whether you're looking at an MBA, specialized masters, various different options. One of the things that you want to do is continue to do your research by talking to students, talking to our communities, so you can figure out which program best suits you.
[00:06:31] Speaker B: Okay? Yeah, thanks for that. Matt, I want to turn to you. This is a question we always hear, and you'll see on the websites for the schools that there are different ways that they teach their courses. Right. And so I wondered if you might just speak to the different methodologies that are out there. What I'm going to expect to sort of see in the classroom?
[00:06:49] Speaker E: No, absolutely. Great question. Great to see you all in the audience today. So just learning inside the classroom and outside the classroom, right. I would say inside the classrooms, really three main pedagogies. One is just your general lecture where you're listening to the professor who's trying to teach a framework or a calculation in finance or accounting, really trying to absorb that knowledge or framework. There's also what you'll hear about is a case method where you're presented like a real life case from ten years ago, 20 years ago, doesn't really matter. The point is not how long ago it was, but how critical of a decision you have to make as a manager. And you become the manager for that 15 page case, and you have to make a recommendation and really have a strong point of view, and the faculty member does a phenomenal job facilitating a conversation and dialogue with their classmates. And the third way is really kind of inside and outside the classroom is through experiential learning. So rather than listening to the faculty member or doing a case with a group of classmates, it's actually applying what you learn in class with a real life client or with a real organization. I'm sure all of our schools have these experiential opportunities where you get to actually be the real consultant, so to speak. And whether it's for two weeks, three weeks, seven weeks, for credit or not for credit, actually, to apply those frameworks that you learn inside the classroom and in any of these variety of teaching methodologies, there's a mix of individual work and group work. But I will say you'll end up learning, and there's no faculty members in here, but you'll end up learning more from one another. Right. Than your faculty member, because inside the class of, let's say, 80 students, all with six years of work experience, that's 480 years of work experience versus the professor, who has 15 to 40 years of work experience. So really leverage the knowledge of one another, because you come from different industries and backgrounds, so you come with experience, come with a point of view, and work with the professor because you're teaching each other just as much as you're learning from a faculty member.
[00:08:58] Speaker B: Yeah, and that's a great point that Matt's making. And I still recall when I was doing an MBA, you remember more the stories that your classmates tell about work experience they had, whether it was in the oil and gas sector or stuff that I had never had any exposure to. So hearing these, like, firsthand accounts of business decisions that they had to make, and everyone brings that stuff into the classroom, that's a perfect segue to Dana. It'd be really weird to have HBS on a panel and not learn a little bit more about the case method, which is kind of the hallmark of their kind of instruction. So could you just speak to that?
[00:09:30] Speaker F: Yeah, sure. And I think HBS is, the case method is the primary way that we teach and learn, but we have other ways that we teach. And, of course, the case method is taught in many different institutions, but cases are stories. They're written about real businesses, real companies, and real problems. And as Matt said, you're asked to take the position of that business leader, and you read through the ten to 15 page case, which is based on real life. So guess what? You don't have all the information you would want to have to make the decision, and you decide what you would do. And then the class sessions usually kick off with a faculty member asking just that. If you were this person, what decision would you make? And you're going to learn a lot from the faculty member who's guiding the conversation. But exactly what Matt said. You're learning from all the different perspectives and experiences in the class, because your class is full of people who are just as smart as you, who have read the same exact information you read. But because of their professional experiences, because of their lived experiences, they approach the problem in a different way. What I love about the case method the most is that you are definitely going to learn about business. If you take accounting and you can learn accounting and finance through the case method, you're going to learn about debits and credits. But the case method also allows for remarkable soft skill development, to learn how to make decisions quickly, to learn how to articulate a point of view, to learn how to listen really well. So I could talk about case method forever. Stop by the HBS table if you want to hear more.
[00:11:05] Speaker B: And another thing I just recall in business school, there were occasions where after we did a case, the CEO of the company that we had discussed would show up and tell us what they actually did and why we were all wrong or right or, you know, so it's just fascinating to get that firsthand knowledge and bring someone into the classroom from the private sector. Lindsay, I want to turn to you and ask a kind of fundamental question, which people always have, which is, is there like a requirement in terms of, like, when's the best time to get an MBA? And is there, you know, a minimum level of experience? And also on the other side, like, could you be too old to get an MBA?
[00:11:44] Speaker C: Never too old.
I think I can speak broadly, not just on behalf of NYU sterm, but all programs like you generally won't see a minimum number of years as a strict requirement, or a maximum number of years is like, you go over this and you're no longer relevant for the program. I do think it's worthwhile to review the class profiles and see. See where the average and the range is for each program and then do your own sort of self reflection. And is this a good moment for me to do an MBA program? Also, take a look at the employment reports. What are people placing into? So I'll start at kind of the early career phase. If you have only been in the workforce for one or two years post undergrad, like think, recall back to some of the things that we were just talking about, about the case method. You just don't have as much context to bring to that conversation. And what are you getting out of that conversation? In addition to what type of roles are you placing? Like, if you look at the employment reports and talk to some folks in consulting and investment banking, they're generally going to want like three years of experience in order to place into those roles. So you gotta, you gotta think about the outcome post MBA, too. So that's on the early side, on the latter side, I think it's more of a like, does this fit your time of life and what's the right MBA program for you? Kind of to what Eddie was saying, like is a full time MBA is two years out of the workforce, doing an internship and then placing into the type of roles that MBAs place into coming out of full time programs. Is that suitable for your life with ten plus years of experience? That's only something that you can decide for yourself. Maybe an accelerated one year program or a focus program, maybe a part time program or an executive program would be a better fit at that point in terms of the outcomes that you're looking for.
[00:13:34] Speaker B: So while we're talking about program types and doing this sort of self reflection, the question I had for Eddie is how do you go about picking schools in the first place? I mean, obviously there are 21 schools at this event tonight. They're all pretty good. How do I. And I can't apply to 21 schools. I mean, people have tried, it doesn't work, do not apply to 21 at the same time. So how would you go about deciding?
[00:13:57] Speaker D: Well, first of all, I just commend you all for being here, just going through this process of just learning more. And for some of you, as you already mentioned, you're looking at next year or, you know, in the, in the future. But what I would look at is, you know, I would look at a few different things. You know, one, what's most important to you, and for some it might be location. You know, Chicago is a great area, but also maybe it's a more of a smaller college town feel that you might be looking for. I think some of the things that you may want a consideration too is what type of environment do you learn best in? And is it more of a smaller class size, a larger class size, but then also once again, getting a better understanding of what is the teaching methodology that happens within each MBA program and where students are really thriving. For some, it might be rankings, it might be where students, you know, do well placing in certain areas.
But what I would say is continue to have the conversations with members of our communities.
I truly believe that as you go through this two year journey or a year journey, you also want to be in a place where you know you're going to be happy. I think every program upstairs is a program that's going to get you to where you want to be, but also you have to think about that two year or that year journey of happiness and, you know, really having that support system, you know, what, you know, the interactions with faculty, etcetera. So if you have that opportunity where you start to narrow it down, whether it's location, whether it's career goals or whatever it may be, come and visit, you know, continue to attend these events. Come and visit our school schools. I believe that it's so important to actually come and visit where I've had students or candidates come to Cornell and they realize, one, this is where they want to be, or they walk away saying, I'm glad I came to visit, but this is just not for me. And I would rather you go through that process now before, you know, enrolling into our program. And of course, when you think about the cost of an MBA, it's a. It's a lot.
[00:16:10] Speaker B: So one more kind of follow up on that. I said don't apply to 21 schools, but I also would say don't apply to just one. Because while all the schools upstairs are great, that also means it's hard to get in. Right. Or it's not a cakewalk, necessarily. But how many? I mean, how do I decide how many is this sort of sweet spot?
[00:16:29] Speaker D: Right. Well, one, keep your options open, you know, once again, and don't. Yes, don't apply to just one program. I think that most students will probably narrow it down to, let's say, probably about three or four schools that they typically apply to. And once again, it's really important for you to have a better sense of which program best suits you, and once again, where you feel that you would thrive, et cetera. Think about the timeline for each application. You want to also make sure that you have enough time to put your best foot forward by applying to, you know, and I truly believe more than four schools out there, I don't know how you can truly put in enough time to thoroughly do the research. Everyone's application is unique. Every essay is different, every interview process is different, and really making sure that you really cover all your bases. So, once again, I would really narrow it down to a few schools and then really focus your energy on submitting the best application towards that application itself.
[00:17:42] Speaker B: Thanks. Yeah. And I would add that some people will apply to, you know, those three or four schools in round one because the schools tend to use these staged cycles where there are rounds. The first round is often in September, October. You find out before Christmas if you've been accepted. The second round's in January. And in some cases, if a school has a third or even a fourth round, it'll be March, April, and beyond. And so some people will spread schools across if they're having trouble getting all the work done, because there is quite a bit of work to do for each school that you apply to. Matt, I wanted to ask you, let's imagine that I apply to four or six schools and I run the table and get into all of them.
[00:18:19] Speaker E: Wow, what an impressive candidate.
[00:18:20] Speaker B: Well, I mean, so how do I decide where to go? Because it's one thing to narrow the list to those four or six that I'm really passionate about, but how do I decide where to go?
[00:18:31] Speaker E: Yeah, it's a great question, and it's really just an exclamation point. Emphasis on the things that Eddie just shared. But now it's real, right? So you don't have to put your best foot forward anymore. You got in. Right? So now just like, bring your best, authentic self, which you should be doing from the beginning. But then you have to actually make a real decision. And there's a lot of different ways to evaluate. You know, you could open up an excel document and have twelve factors weighted each way, see where it plays out. And then you look at it and say, no, let's change the weight a little bit, because you actually know in your gut you want to go somewhere else. Right? So it's a little bit of both using your mind and your heart. I would maybe frame it up in kind of the three C's. I worked in marketing, so it's a different three C's in marketing. But I would say community, culture, and career. It all starts with the career of why you want to pursue your MBA. But I actually think career is a third of those three. I think one is community. I love Eddie. You know what he said about return? It's a lot of time, right? Return on investment. Investment is just not financial investment. That's two years of your life, emotional investment. And you want to be happy. You want to grow and be the best version of yourself. So think about the community. And it's not just your peers, but it's, do you want to be in a big city? New York, Harvard. Right. Do you want to be in a small college town? Ithaca or Ann Arbor? Do you want to be in a place that has the number one college football team in the country? There's only one of those, right? So think of your community in terms of who you work with, where you are, geography. Eddie is exactly right. And I think that leads into the culture. Right. In terms of you're just going to understand and have that. That feels that moment. So you really need to be on campus. If you hadn't had the opportunity to visit campus or speak with student ambassadors or alumni ambassadors, speak with as many people as possible. And do you see yourself working and living with these people, not just for two years, but being an esteemed alum for the next 40 years of your career afterwards? And of course, it's also about career. So you're going to look at all those career statistics, but the fact that you're in this room, you're highly motivated, wildly successful.
You will be wildly successful no matter which of these schools you go to. It's a really marginal difference over the course of your career.
There's a divide deciding factor. Community and culture are all equal. Then maybe you lean to more to the career aspect, but I find it hard to believe that community and culture will be equal amongst many schools.
[00:20:48] Speaker F: Matt, I think we should add a fourth c.
I would say classroom just in terms of the academics, because you're going to get a good education. But the way the classroom is structured, whether it's case, method, maybe it's project work, maybe it's a required curriculum or a more flexible curriculum. There are lots of differences about the way the learning happens at these schools. And so can we add the fourth c?
[00:21:13] Speaker E: I love it. Okay, don't ask about four p's.
[00:21:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
I love that you have a weighted spreadsheet. You have an MBA.
[00:21:21] Speaker E: I did. Yes. I had a weighted spreadsheet. And you went through it and you start changing the weighted factors, and once you start doing that, you realize what school you actually want to go to.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: Another thing that I think has been highlighted that's really interesting is that the shoe is on the other foot once you have the offers in hand, and it does give you a chance to go visit the campuses and, you know, instead of, like, worrying that everything you might say, you know, will impact your application or something, you're in a very different frame of mind when you've been admitted. And most of these programs do what we would call like a welcome weekend or an admitted students event where you can really, I guess, for lack of a better term, kick the tires on a program and figure out whether there's fit. So keep that in mind as well.
I did want to ask. Dana is kind of the elephant in the room, is that people talk a lot about return on investment when it comes to an MBA. People talk about the cost of leaving your job and not having income for a couple of years while paying tuition. So I just wanted to ask you, what's the value even beyond sort of ROI, why get an MBA?
[00:22:22] Speaker F: Yeah, I mean, I think like with so many things we've talked about today, it's about your individual interests, your individual expectations, your individual circumstances. I think that's true with the return on investment, I would encourage anyone who's thinking about getting an MBA. So all of you, I guess, to not just be thinking about the short term. I think these are degrees, these are experiences. This is a community that you're going to have for the rest of your professional career, for the rest of your life. So I would definitely take a longer viewpoint on it. I think about three things. I think one about the skill set you're going to develop. Not only the hard skills you're going to develop, but also the soft skills. And not only the skills you're going to develop that you'll use in your first job, but the skills that you're going to use in your last job. So I think that's all things to be thinking about. I would also think about the network, the community. It's not just about the one year or the two years, but this is a community that you're going to be connected with for the rest of your career. And I think these connections become more important the further down you get in your career. And it's not just about who you're actually in school with, but it's just sharing that affiliation with someone. Sharing that alma mater with someone can sometimes get an email answered or help you out. And I think that community and network pays dividends. And the last thing I would think about is your career trajectory and your earning potential. And this is a really important thing to not just think about, okay, what is going to be your starting salary when you leave an MBA? I don't know if that'll be terribly different from your salary coming into the program, but I can tell you the further you get out, the more differentiated your earning potential will become. So I would think about the five year, the ten year or the 15 year.
[00:24:08] Speaker B: That makes sense. Lindsay, do you want to comment on this one too, just because you have an MBA?
[00:24:12] Speaker C: Yeah, a couple of things.
Got my MBA in 2007. I don't know if I'm amongst the peer set here. So kind of at the very beginning of the great financial crisis, and I would say it not only should, like you made an excellent comment about the long term investment, I feel like it is something that gives you some. Some optionality and the ability to weather those financial storms and have choices and have the preparation and potential to say, okay, this path has come to an end and I'm ready to make a change. For me, that happened recently, I made a mirrored career shift from corporate financial services to higher Ed, and it was because of the connections I had through my MBA program and those experiences. I would also say I'll jump in.
[00:25:05] Speaker F: While you find that. Other thoughts? I can only speak about NYU and HBS, but I don't know if other schools have this as well. But we offer lifelong career support. I know NYU does, too.
So that's just people that can look at your resume, recruiters that will go to schools, just someone to talk through your situation with. And I think with this extended career support, you have people in the office that specialize in different stages of career. Because when you're, you know, first getting out of an MBA, what you need from a career coach is very different than when you're at different points in your career.
[00:25:39] Speaker C: And additionally, and I think there are other programs that offer this, too, but the ability to audit classes as an alum. So if you want to upskill reskill, find out more about AI. Right. And your program is offering an AI class. That's something that you can audit as an alumni, at least at NYU Stern. And I think at some other programs, too.
[00:26:00] Speaker B: Excellent. I really appreciate you guys making time. I don't want to keep you down here too long because I know that they're probably candidates who want to chat with you at your tables upstairs. We're not going to do Q and A for that reason, but if you guys want, there are three more panels tonight covering admission, strategy and application tips, as well as a special session next about strategy consulting. And we have the head of HR recruiting for Bain and company's Chicago office here to talk as well. But Lindsey, Eddie, Matt, and Dana, thank you so much for your time tonight. It's been, I feel like I learned a lot.
